QWAK,Black POWDER worked in the good old days! :)

[GOLD DUCK]

QWAK,When I first started preping back in the late 70s I decided that with a GOOD 50 call Hawkins one could always SURVIVE:idea: even if one had to mix up there own BLACK powder and cast there own lead ball. :alberteinstein:

I have several BP guns in my asorted colection and still believe that at some point in the future modern guns will be obsoleat because there will be no AMUNITION to shoot in them! :ahhhhh::vollkommenauf:

I guess that was my "Jaramia Johnson" phase which I never totaly grew out of :alberteinstein:

the DUCK :shine::2:

[Lt Dan]

Got a couple BP rifles myself, not for the same reason you mentioned, but like 'em just the same. One is an inline .50 the other is a flintlock also in .50 cal. the inline uses shotgun primers, they tend to make things go bang very consistently. I've hunted with both, never killed anything with either. Expensive toys! Could be useful if your idea of someday no ammo ever comes true.

[Rusty Shackelford]

Big blackpowder enthusiast here. First rifle I ever bought was a TC Hawkin in a 45 cal. Bought it with the proceeds from seeling my two 4H hogs when I was 12 years old. Harvested my first 11 deer with that rifle. Upgraded since then to a TC Encore. But despite what the die hard old timers think, this inline is really no different then the old side locks of yester-year.

Just to expand on Lt Dan, Every deer I have ever killed (with a fire arm) has been with a muzzle loader. I have take 3 with a bow.

[Professur]

before you go banking on BP .... try gathering the components yourself and see how well you do. that's before you even try mixing it yourself. Buying and storing BP is a better option ... but it's like coffee where shelf life is concerned. Probably still better to have stockpiled high quality sealed ammo in bulk.

[Rusty Shackelford]

I can speak from experience that the prof is spot on. Even one year after opening a pound of poweder or brick of pellets, the performance drops of. We have checked this on a chrony and have seen velocities drop noticable with the old opened powder. That in turns effects the accuracy. Maybe not a huge issue in the short ranges under fifty yards, but when you want to stretch the ML out to 100 or 150 yards old opened powder just aint reliable.

With that said, I still use mine exclusively.

[GOLD DUCK]

before you go banking on BP .... try gathering the components yourself and see how well you do. that's before you even try mixing it yourself. Buying and storing BP is a better option ... but it's like coffee where shelf life is concerned. Probably still better to have stockpiled high quality sealed ammo in bulk.

QWAK,Professur,I have stock piled modern powder and primers (primers are the week link) and I now have modern weapons an ammo too. :2:

Back when I was a KID and doing my "Thomas Edison" thing :banana: I damn near blew the folks house up making BP and FLASH POWDER too! :ahhhhh::banana:

I could not get the MIX just right and in testing a small batch a spark set off the whole batch I was mixing :ahhhhh: and the place ware I set up my LAB was next to the HOME HEATING OIL TANKS! :ahhhhh::vollkommenauf::banana:

In SOooooooooo many ways as I look back -- I have lived a CHARMED LIFE:alberteinstein: because I should have been DEAD many times OVER! :idea::vollkommenauf::banana:

the DUCK :shine::2:

[Professur]

Makes you respect those thousand year old chinese men who discovered the stuff.

[GOLD DUCK]

Makes you respect those thousand year old chinese men who discovered the stuff.

QWAK,Professur,Another thing that comes to mind is --- "A lot of MEN tried and a LOT of MEN -- DIED -- trying!":idea::ahhhhh::banana:

the DUCK :2:

[Rusty Shackelford]

Thats why I follow the book DUCK!! I am not goona be a wildcatter that is missing an eye or suffereing burns trying to push the envelope if you know what I mean.

[GOLD DUCK]

Thats why I follow the book DUCK!! I am not goona be a wildcatter that is missing an eye or suffereing burns trying to push the envelope if you know what I mean.

QWAK,Rusty Shackelford,I think ware I got the IDEA :idea: was from an old "Star Treck" episode ware Capten Kerk was fighting a HUGE LIZARD MAN on a deserted planet and made a crude CANON and mixed up some GUN POWDER and fired DIAMONDS at the LIZARD MAN!:alberteinstein:

Now Capten Kerk is just OLD and FAT and SINGS funny:alberteinstein: and I just got OLD and some how SURVIVED my YOUTH! :23_30_104::2::banana:

the DUCK :shine::cheerful:

[goldie40]

before you go banking on BP .... try gathering the components yourself and see how well you do. that's before you even try mixing it yourself. Buying and storing BP is a better option ... but it's like coffee where shelf life is concerned. Probably still better to have stockpiled high quality sealed ammo in bulk.

shelf life for BP is forever so long as it's kept dry, they have found old muskets in Arizona that were loaded for over one hundred yrs and they still fired the load out of it.

Do a search and look up red gun powder, it can also be home made although, I wouldn't try making any powder as it's not only illegal but a great way to meet your maker if you screw up. My GF had some BP in his celler from the early 1900s that we used up in the early 50s splitting wood.

[GOLD DUCK]

shelf life for BP is forever so long as it's kept dry, they have found old muskets in Arizona that were loaded for over one hundred yrs and they still fired the load out of it.

Do a search and look up red gun powder, it can also be home made although, I wouldn't try making any powder as it's not only illegal but a great way to meet your maker if you screw up. My GF had some BP in his celler from the early 1900s that we used up in the early 50s splitting wood.

QWAK,goldie40,I looked up "red GUN POWDER" -- it is FOOD!! ???:idea::banana:

I did also come across this and YES you are right -- if cept cool and dry and in an air tight container should last almost for ever! :2:

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread_archive.cfm?threadid=117296

the DUCK :cheerful:

[Rusty Shackelford]

I don't disagree with the fact that old BP will ignite and propell a projectile. Just stating that its performance begins to decay and is not consistant.

[goldie40]

QWAK,goldie40,I looked up "red GUN POWDER" -- it is FOOD!! ???:
:
cook some for lunch
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/cornhusker09/003-2.jpg

[GOLD DUCK]

cook some for lunch
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/cornhusker09/003-2.jpg

QWAK,goldie40,I can't deal with SPICEY food -- never developed a taist for it! :ahhhhh:

http://www.yum-recipes.com/Recipe/Indian/136353_Indian_Red_Gun_Powder_Molaha_Podi.html

BTW: Don't "LIGHT a MATCH" when in confined room -- it could go BOOM! :ahhhhh: :vollkommenauf:

Somthing MORE for the "TSA" to check for??? :banana::23_30_104:

the DUCK :shine::2:

[Professur]

And you thought lighting farts was fun when eating beans ....

[GOLD DUCK]

And you thought lighting farts was fun when eating beans ....

QWAK,Professur,There is an OLD SERVIVALIST saying that goes back to the old Mountain men like Kit Carson (one of my boyhood HEROS" that seems most aproprite here! :2:

"**** FIRE and SAVE the MATCHES!":banana::vollkommenauf::haha:

the DUCK :shine::2:

[Thornapple]

I've got a couple of black powder revolvers myself. While they're nice, I think when the ammo finally goes, I'll fall back to my bow and crossbow. Making arrows and bolts and new bowstrings is easier than mixing black powder. IMO there's a reason why armies continued to use swords and bows long after black powder was invented. You can sharpen a sword or knife anywhere and you can always make arrows or a new bow if you have to. While gunpowder, primers, and gun parts are hard to replace and reproduce yourself.

[noworries]

Primers will last forever if stored correctly, and smokeless powder about the same, or at least 20yrs.
Store in brass cartridges, IE as loaded ammunition if you want all the benefits, like 50 or more years.
Figure you're gonna live forever???

AR-15/AR-10 rifles, Colt 1911 pistols, Rem 700, Ruger 10/22, Ruger Mk .22lr pistols are VERY EASY to
gunsmith and parts are Very Available. Not like you need worry about parts being available; IF YOU ACT
NOW... Try www.brownells.com. Midsouth shooters, Wideners, Graf & Sons, for metallic ctg reloading
tools and supplies.

As much as I would like to own some nice Pedersoli or other reproduction rifles & pistols, the cost vs benefit
is just not there. Sure, there is a benchrest blackpowder shooters guild and lots of fun to be had, but buying
BP gear for survival use is a pipedream that ranks right there with Backpack Bugouts as best way to commit
suicide; jmo.

Figure at a minimum, the parts you need to fix most common breaks and failures are firing pin, ejector, extractor
related. Springs, pins for each. Maybe a replacement trigger assy and some action screws. With a barrel vise
and action wrench you can switchbarrel most rifles. Way easier to swap an upper or mount a new AR barrel to
your upper receiver, but many prefer bolt rifles. The Savage action nut 110 rifles are very swapable. Might be nice
to have one receiver and stock and be able to run a .22-250 up to .35Whelen just by changing-out barrels...

Gotta love the idea of owning a .357mag revolver plus a .35 whelen or other .358 bore rifle and being able to use
pistol bullets in the rifle at reduced load, and cast bullets in both. Lyman cast bullet digest is a super value at about $15
to get the reduced load data and info on how to for so many ctgs and bullet molds. Not quite the romance of a Sharpe
novel, "3 rds per minute" but way more effective....

[Cold Finger]

before you go banking on BP .... try gathering the components yourself and see how well you do. that's before you even try mixing it yourself. Buying and storing BP is a better option ... but it's like coffee where shelf life is concerned. Probably still better to have stockpiled high quality sealed ammo in bulk.

Quoted for truth. A guy with a bunch of common caliber mil spec or factory ammo sealed in ammo or spam cans is a lot more ready than someone who thinks they can make their own blackpowder and not blow their hands off. Be careful

I have a pair of Scottish Murdoch BP replica flintlock pistols, (51 caliber) they are shootable but I never have, although I have a few soup cans full of bullets cast up for them. They are for display in my arms room with my Scottish weapons, shields and such

[GOLD DUCK]

QWAK,Some ware in my passed:alberteinstein: I remember reading that it was POSABLE to reload modern ammo with home made black powder and by carfuly removing the old caps the caps could then be refilled with strike any ware match heads!:idea: I believe they said they had about a 75% BANG when used -- 3 out of 4 isin't all that bad IF it is all you got! :2:

I guess it depends on how PRIMITIVE things get? No way of knowing till we get there so always best to have a plan "B" and lots more posabilities than -- "OH **** the GUN BROKE" -- "now what do I do??" :ahhhhh::vollkommenauf:

the DUCK :shine::2:

[Cold Finger]

"Gun broke what do I do?"

Pull out a spare gun, or start making longbows and arrows

Seriously guns won't be the problem, the lack of storing enough ammo for most folks, will be. There will be piles of guns in every survivor's place, but little capture ammo

[GOLD DUCK]

QWAK,Cold Finger -- What maks you think making a decent BOW orAROWS that FUNCTION is easier than making a HAND CANON? Both require SKILL and knolage of how things work and the proper materials and ultimitly the ability to use them!:alberteinstein:

A spear perhaps is simple just a long sharp stick realy BUT a weapon that can fire a projectal and hit the target is a whole lot more complicated! :idea::banana:

Even a primitive bow and arrow requires more than IMAGINATION to transform raw materials!

A 3/4" pipe and pipe cap with a hole in it and some sort of handle to hold it would likely be more efective add some black powder and some projectals and you got a WEAPON :23_30_104:--- in the OLD DAYS it could take down an ARMORED KNIGHT on HORSE BACK!:haha:

the DUCK

[Cold Finger]

Actually bow and arrow making is quite easy. Here's a 6 parter video on how to make a longbow with minimal tools in the field. I can shoot 10 to 12 arrows in the time it takes for an improvised tube gun to fire one shot and reload, and I do not require chemicals, fire or fuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGz6Pxx31FE&feature=channel

How to make arrows. You can even make the vanes out of 100 MPH or duct tape:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COzq6AteiBI


And a simple wrist rocket can be quite a lethal weapon. I'm going to posts s thread on the one I just finished

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyxjnDNHW7Y

[GOLD DUCK]

QWAK,cold finger -- one can READ a book about FISHING but when it comes to actualy DOING it then things go SIDE WAYS! LOL

It talkes the RIGHT wood and that is likely NO in your back yard or redaly avalable.

CAN it be done SHURE -- can YOU do IT -- not likely!

Lots of things are DOABLE -- but not many people can actualy do them!

the DUCK

[Cold Finger]

I have fished since I was 5 (I'm 50) and yes I can make almost any weapon. I have made my own medieval daggers, spears, warhammers, battle axes, Roman throwing darts, shields, related gear/clothing and a lot more. By comparison a bow is easy.. I could make a bow and arrows with one of my Pakistani camp bowies and a few easily obtained natural items. If I had some paracord to part out it would be even easier. Up here in the PNW yew is the best wood for bows, lots of cedar here for arrows

[noworries]

"Gun broke what do I do?"

Pull out a spare gun, or start making longbows and arrows

Seriously guns won't be the problem, the lack of storing enough ammo for most folks, will be. There will be piles of guns in every survivor's place, but little capture ammo

Actually, guns DO Break, or at least the parts that make them function do...
JB Wood is the guy who wrote many/most of the Gun Digest Firearms Assembly books. In the mid-70s, he did a column for Mel Tappan's Personal Survival Letter where he discussed
most common breakages and repair for the most common survivalist firearms. Uniformly, Wood recommended bolt components and mainsprings as being most likely to fail. Revolvers more prone
to break a ratchet or hand, maybe a hammer nose, but uniformly extractors, ejectors and firing pins plus mainsprings were parts that failed. Most very cheap and easy to acquire.

Blow up a barrel or ruin a mauser action bolt and you are on your own. Pretty foolish not to have spare parts for your guns and dumb not to select commonly available firearms. Look at Brownells.com for parts.

I would look at buying Lee Loader or more complete loading tools plus basic powders like Unique, Varget, and IMR 4350. Unique is extremely versatile especially for cast bullet and reduced power rifle loads.

[GOLD DUCK]

I have fished since I was 5 (I'm 50) and yes I can make almost any weapon. I have made my own medieval daggers, spears, warhammers, battle axes, Roman throwing darts, shields, related gear/clothing and a lot more. By comparison a bow is easy.. I could make a bow and arrows with one of my Pakistani camp bowies and a few easily obtained natural items. If I had some paracord to part out it would be even easier. Up here in the PNW yew is the best wood for bows, lots of cedar here for arrows

QWAK,Cold Finger,You make my point for me -- because YOU have the knolage and experience it is a a DOABLE posability but for 99% of people it would be a great waist of both time and effort BOTH of which are NOT for waisting in a TRUE SURVIVAL situation! :alberteinstein:

In an urban inviroment you are much more likely to find the parts needed and even tools and the CHEMICALS to make a HAND CANNON!:23_30_104:

BTW:IF you are going to make a bow you want properly dried seasoned wood not just hack off a green limb and start witteling with a pocket knife! :wub:

A crued bow is posable perhaps but for an effective weapon it needs to be much more than a green limb and a piece of paracord! :idea:

The best ability is --- ADAPTABILITY! :alberteinstein:

IF you are some how lost/stranded out in the boonies with no civilisation around then I would agree on a crude bow and arrow being better than nothing BUT in any kind of actual urban inviroment with lots of scrap materials to be scrounged a HAND CANNON and lots of other devices are not only posable but much faster and easier to asemble!:alberteinstein:

Befor there was "McGiver" there was -- "the WARLOCK" who became -- the DUCK! :idea:

the DUCK :2:

[Professur]

I would also remind everyone that 'net info' is notoriously fickle. Accuracy is always questionable ... and availbility is always the inverse square of necessity. The more you need it .. the less likely it will be possible to get it.

[GOLDZILLA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkWKffzY0Yk&feature=related