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View Full Version : Bearish S&P500: A comparison of the 60's expanding wedge to the 90's expanding wedge



PonziUnit
06-11-2011, 01:42 PM
Fractal and slope similarities:

It started out when I noticed that the 3 consecutive lower lows including 10/7/66, 5/26/70 and 10/3/74 are at the same descending slope as the 2 consecutive lows from the 90's bear. My theory is that the expanding bearish wedge is the shape of default rolling defaults shaped by intervention.

Using the frame of time:

In the 70's the 3 lows were roughly 4 years apart. So far in the 90's with 2 lower lows in place and every bear expecting a 3rd, the time span is roughly 7 years apart. For comparison purposes, I had to pick a high point, or a start for each of the bear markets and for that I used where price intersected the red channels marked in 1964 and 1997. The red channel gives the fractal comparison of the 60's bear and the 90's bear consistent starting points as they are both based on the same channel. It seems to me that if we are indeed echoing the 70's it's on a larger scale and so far that scale is approximately a 4 to 7 ratio using the frame of time.

Using the frame of price:

The first top in the 70's (roughly) 94 dropped 33% to the low of 73. Second top 108 dropped 37% to 69. Third top 119 dropped 48% to 62.

The first top in the 90's, 1552 dropped 51% to 768. The second top from 1576 dropped 57% to 666.

The scale of the drop off the tops is larger in the 90's but so is the time span between these drops.

If this bear market as measured by the fractal continues to rhyme (using the 4:7 time ratio) with the 70's bear market then it would extend out till 2016. _IF_ there is going to be a third low to this 90's bear market and _IF_ it is also kept on the same scale then it projects a final bottom somewhere along that uppermost red channel line and the lowest price for that intersection of the channel would be approximately 421 in November of 2016.

If somehow price sunk down to that channel all in this week it would put the low around 620 but because price destruction has all till 2016 to accomplish this rhyme with the 70's bear, I've got my ultimate bottom from between 600-421 between now and late 2016.

If price does drop to that red channel then that puts in a huge head a shoulders formation and I think it's similar to McHugh's projections of head and shoulders signaling prices to zero. Actually, if prices broke below 420 I'd have the target between 100-50 but I don't think that happens.

Regardless, over time the market has experienced many substantial declines and if what we just had was a multi-year top, we've likely got a low at 30-60% more downside from where we are right now through 2016. Not saying it has to happen but if we do go down to retest or break below the lows between now and 2016 it should be seen as typical of historical market performance.

:bear_pinch:

andial
06-11-2011, 02:01 PM
I matched up the '74 bottom with the '09 bottom and have been making my bets accordingly.

PonziUnit
06-11-2011, 07:52 PM
One of those light green trend lines then seems like it would be a conservative bearish bet then of at least 850?. The timing is what's most difficult for me. Many active traders I follow are looking for it this year or at most next year. A break out over 1300 and my bearish bias comes off.

andial
06-11-2011, 08:53 PM
I don't think we hit 850. Using '74 as a starting guide you can see the lows in '78 do not hit the upper green line and the low in 1982 does. So if things match using the '09 low in 2013 will not hit the green line but the lows in 2016 will. I don't think we get any big downturns maybe another 5 or ten percent at most. I am also holding a short position on the S+P using SDS that I have held since April. Looking to get out pretty soon. JMHO

EDIT: I don't think we have the third bottom that the author is calling for on his chart.

andial
06-12-2011, 09:36 AM
Just to add I think the author is mising the July of '98 low on his chart. That would give us the three lows. July of '98, October of '02 and March of '09.

PonziUnit
06-12-2011, 01:16 PM
This fractal has till 2016 to play out and I take a look at it every time the markets show signs of weakness as a worst case scenario reminder. It's on my table until markets break out to new all time highs.

andial
06-12-2011, 01:48 PM
Yes I think it is neat to look at.Over two years ago a poster named Sparky set up a chart with the '29 low (I thought he should have used the '32 low)the '74 low and the '09 low all matched up and we speculated which way the '09 low would play out. I thought were going to repeat the huge rallies like in '74 and '32 . I think the rally has mostly played out and we are in for some boredom on the long and short side (in stocks) until 2016. JMHO

PonziUnit
06-12-2011, 04:43 PM
Perhaps I should provide an introduction and disclosure: :)

I favor the 'Permanent Portfolio' described pretty much as something I read like this
The Permanent Portfolio is simply this: 25% growth stocks (Harry favored indexing near the end), 25% long-term treasury bonds (as close to 30-year as possible), 25% gold, and 25% cash (or short-term treasuries). The Permanent Portfolio has returned an average of something like 10% over the last 30 years with extremely low volatility. I'd have to refresh my memory, but I believe that that the PP's worst year was a negative 2 or 3 percent.

The PP concept is based upon the fact that each these four classes of assets tends to move independently in response to very different economic conditions, so that in any given economic climate, some will be doing well and some will be doing poorly. The PP requires periodic rebalancing when any one asset class drops below 15 percent or rises above 35 percent, so what's happening is a kind of constant dollar cost averaging. - Tickerfan

I've swapped in my own holdings by necessity more than choice (substituting a Pension for Bonds) and I would say I am currently underweight in gold. Traditional brokers advocate no more than 10% gold if I recall. Due to rebalancing I have been a recent seller of physical gold and am now overweight in cash.

I was inspired to post this thread from Martin Armstrong's turn date prediction of June 13, 14th. (no turn date predicted for gold from Armstrong btw, my guess is that this turn date marks some economic peak or valley located somewhere in Europe or Middle Eastern markets that ripples forward to a point where we'll then see it as the trigger).

http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/Is%20the%20End%20Near%2006-05-2011.pdf

With the turning point of June 13th/14th on the doorstep, this appears to be a subtle quiet change in trend that will not even be noticed except with hindsight as was the case in 1985.65, 1994.25, and 2002.85.

One of Armstrong's past predictive works had been reprinted and below is his call from 1998 Economic Confidence Model


http://www.10sigma.com/files/1998%20fall%20Seminar%20Tour.pdf

Defining the global business cycle
- - - - - - Outlook - - - - - -
1998 = Collapse of Russia
1999 = Low Gold & Oil
2000 = Technology Bubble (Like Railroads in 1907)
2002 = Bottom US Share Market
2007 = Real Estate Bubble, Oil hits $100
2009 = Start of Sovereign Debt Crisis
2011-15 = Japan Economic Decline & EURO begins to crack due to debt crisis
2015.75 = Sovereign Debt Big Bang

I view gold as an ultimate deflationary hedge and accept that fact that gold has proven to be a marvelous inflationary holding. Basically I fear deflation as described in http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2011/06/june-11-2011-future-of-physical-gold.html but I believe that if a house drops in value 50% then gold only has to drop in value 25%. If everyone loses I want to be the least of the losers and I'm saddened to say it like that.

Beyond that, I've been a long time fan of the Hawkeye (and the ladies that find their way in there) and the Cyclist threads from here and other forums and my favorite thread of all time on all on a gold message board is the one about goro.ob The Best Gold Mining Stock Ever! :-> But mostly I lurk and recently longing for some gold coins that went missing I am happy to say that I took a first step, that of registering for the viewing privileges of a new gold market forum.

Goldhedge
06-12-2011, 07:02 PM
The chart argues, or assumes the dollar is a constant.
The 1933 dollar would probably buy what the inflated
market dollar $1300 would buy today.

It' like a zero sum game.

PonziUnit
07-24-2011, 02:09 PM
The chart argues, or assumes the dollar is a constant.

It' like a zero sum game.

Even if the final sum is zero, there are peaks and valleys while calculating. Even though the dollar has lost value, people have more dollars and progress has invented new methods of spending them. It's a point we could discuss forever and Amstrongs' most recent article covers the value of gold under all sorts of currency transitions well enough for me at this time.

What I am interested in is the cycles of the transitions and how best to prepare for that which must change.

For example: I will use one tool, a Fibonacci arc basing it off of the double top in the Dow Jones Transports in 2008 and correlate it with the following price points on the monthly chart. This gives me a wide window of at least 30 days for back testing purposes.

As a timing device, the Fibonacci Arc crosses price within 30 days of the following events:

The Low of 2005, The Top in 2006, The Top in 2007, The Top in 2008, The Bottom in 2009, The Bottom in 2010 and (the most recent) Top of 2011

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2sIvK6R3NF0/TixfXfjD69I/AAAAAAAABg8/sRlUqll6WAY/s640/djt+2011+07+22+b.jpg

And the Top of Y2k.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4FZ6XjySgrg/TixcHoMM-GI/AAAAAAAABgk/xXSIMqWgxCs/s640/djt+2011+07+22+c.jpg

southfork
07-24-2011, 04:35 PM
I matched up the '74 bottom with the '09 bottom and have been making my bets accordingly.



What plays are you in Andial?

andial
07-24-2011, 06:09 PM
What plays are you in Andial?

I'm long Gold /Silver and just a few stocks now. CMC, WM, CYB and MSFT. With a small SDS hedge.

PonziUnit
08-06-2011, 12:29 AM
I was in SDS for about a week and sold it at the end of day Friday. Who knows if I should have held it over the weekend but I had no problem in placing those profits in to some PM stocks.