PCGS SLABS TONING!

[michael]

A few weeks back I asked some questions on this site as to why I had a couple PCGS coins that are toning very rapidly. This has never happened to any of my NGC coins. So I did a little digging and I have seen and heard many complaints about the PCGS holders not being airtight. I understand PCGS grades tougher than NGC and therefore commands higher prices in the secondary market especially First Strike labels. This seems like a major problem and I havnt seen it discussed on this board. I dont know if I should continue to hoard my PCGS coins out of fear more of my coins will tone and ruin my collection. Should I be selling them now? I am fairly new to collecting and this really threw a wrench in my plan to hold my PCGS for the long term and eventually pass them to my children. Seems to me this topic should be more widely discussed if rare and valuable coins have the potential to change color completely. Its surprising that they would command such a high premium with this issue at hand. I havnt heard of this problem with NGC. Like I said I am fairly new to this game and would appreciate if anyone can offer insight. I would be happy to discuss this further with anyone who has an interest.

[Ragnarok]

Does your coin grading service guarantee the coins against toning in the slab, or the slabs to be airtight? If the slab is airtight then the toning is being caused by something in the substance of the slab and the coin(s) should be reslabbed by the grader in a proper material imo.

If the slab is not airtight and is not made of a substance that would cause the coins to tone, you might consider asking the grader to re-slab it anyway, or look further for what is in the local atmosphere that could get into the slabs and cause those coins to tone (hydrogen sulfide, sulfur dioxide, chlorine, etc). You may have to put the whole assembly in an airtight container not made of a substance that would cause the coins to tone, and with minimum free space. Inert gas fill is also an option if you have the means.

Not all toning is bad. Beautifully toned coins can sometimes be worth more than their untoned counterparts depending on the buyer.

Just my 2c; please ask an expert.
R.

[michael]

The only grading company I have this problem with is PCGS. I have no way of knowing if the slab is airtight or not. I will call them and see what they say about my problem. Thanks for the information. much appreciated.

[Ragnarok]

I have no way of knowing if the slab is airtight or not.

Well, one could put the slab in a jar of water and look/wait for air bubbles, if one really needed to, I guess, but good luck getting the water back out!

R.

[Buck]

Well, one could put the slab in a jar of water and look/wait for air bubbles, if one really needed to, I guess, but good luck getting the water back out!

R.

There was a post I read, a while back, where a guy took a certified coin into the bathtub with him (it fell in...whatever...).
To dry it out he put it into an oven and when he took it out, the slab and coin were in one big blob.
I suppose his method removed the water...

If the slab is not sealed tighter than a frogs behind, it is not air tight:flute:

[cpthnsolo]

The only grading company I have this problem with is PCGS. I have no way of knowing if the slab is airtight or not. I will call them and see what they say about my problem. Thanks for the information. much appreciated.

Michael I would be VERY INTERESTED in hearing what they tell you. It's interesting you started this thread as this subject has occupied a fair amount of my thoughts of late (yes I am addicted to modern gold :p). I even discussed this with Eric Jordan at the FUN show at length. At some point I intend on starting a thread on this on the pcgs forums about this to watch the fur fly, but I'm not ready to be banned, again, quite yet ;) :p. Here's what I know:

FACT: PCGS slabs do NOT seem to play well with American gold eagles. At the FUN show this year there was a seller with both a burnished 1/10th 2006 age and the regular age, both in pcgs 70 slabs. The two coins had *wild* multicolor toning, which should be very rare on gold, and the seller was asking a $750 for the pair (which is a premium price due to toning). I have seen similar wild toning one other time on the pcgs forums and it too was on a 1/10th age. Here's the kicker though... Upon looking at hundreds of different dealer booths I noticed that at least one in three pcgs 1/10th burnished gold eagles displayed some amount of toning :eek:. The 2006 examples seemed to have the most, but I did notice a small amount of toning on a 2007 as well.

Furthermore when you search AGE's on eBay many PCGS sellers now notate, "No haze" or "No toning". I rarely see NGC/Anacs/ICG slabs with such a disclaimer so that tells me others have noticed the pcgs issue as well. I plan on buying a toned example at the next show and cracking it out to see if a simple acetone bath removes it. Right now my best guess is that either the paper grade insert or gasket is off-gassing and it's reacting with the surface of the coin. This is not an issue of the slab being sealed or not IMO as I never see raw toned age's so it's not something in the air. I have a few more thoughts on the matter, but I need to see more coins and start an excel sheet to see if I can determine any trends before I say more. While normally toning on gold is highly prized, at some point I feel that collectors are going to recognize this type of toning as environmental damage and not toning.

If anyone else has started research on this subject, or knows of threads about this on other forums, please post the information here or PM me as this is a serious issue in my eyes.

@Michael, can you please post pics if you have them or share more about the coins you're speaking of?

[michael]

Michael I would be VERY INTERESTED in hearing what they tell you. It's interesting you started this thread as this subject has occupied a fair amount of my thoughts of late (yes I am addicted to modern gold :p). I even discussed this with Eric Jordan at the FUN show at length. At some point I intend on starting a thread on this on the pcgs forums about this to watch the fur fly, but I'm not ready to be banned, again, quite yet ;) :p. Here's what I know:

FACT: PCGS slabs do NOT seem to play well with American gold eagles. At the FUN show this year there was a seller with both a burnished 1/10th 2006 age and the regular age, both in pcgs 70 slabs. The two coins had *wild* multicolor toning, which should be very rare on gold, and the seller was asking a $750 for the pair (which is a premium price due to toning). I have seen similar wild toning one other time on the pcgs forums and it too was on a 1/10th age. Here's the kicker though... Upon looking at hundreds of different dealer booths I noticed that at least one in three pcgs 1/10th burnished gold eagles displayed some amount of toning :eek:. The 2006 examples seemed to have the most, but I did notice a small amount of toning on a 2007 as well.

Furthermore when you search AGE's on eBay many PCGS sellers now notate, "No haze" or "No toning". I rarely see NGC/Anacs/ICG slabs with such a disclaimer so that tells me others have noticed the pcgs issue as well. I plan on buying a toned example at the next show and cracking it out to see if a simple acetone bath removes it. Right now my best guess is that either the paper grade insert or gasket is off-gassing and it's reacting with the surface of the coin. Personally this is not an issue of the slab being sealed or not as I never see raw toned age's so it's not something in the air. I have a few more thoughts on the matter, but I need to see more coins and start an excel sheet to see if I can determine any trends before I say more. While normally toning on gold is highly prized, at some point I feel that collectors are going to recognize this type of toning as environmental damage and not toning.

If anyone else has started research on this subject, or knows of threads about this on other forums, please post the information here or PM me as this is a serious issue in my eyes.

@Michael, can you please post pics if you have them or share more about the coins you're speaking of?

I have not noticed any toning on my gold eagles but I have some crazy toning on many First Spouse mainly from 2007-2008. I was also speaking to another big guy out of New York and he said he only keeps NGC slabs for long term investment purposes and always sells or trades the PCGS because they command the higher premium and they tone as time goes on. I poseted pictures of a couple first spouse coins I have with toning a few weeks ago but didnt get too many responses. I will bump that thread to the top. I took a ton of pictures to try to capture the toning the best I could. It is very dramatic dark orangey in color. It actually looks really nice if its just one coin out of a collection however I now have it on 3 coins and i fear it is becoming more common.

[cpthnsolo]

I have not noticed any toning on my gold eagles but I have some crazy toning on many First Spouse mainly from 2007-2008.

Here is the image Michael uploaded of his spouse coins:
14181

The Monroe has clearly darkened quite a bit and is consistent with what I've seen. The coins I studied this past weekend were all typically darker than the norm with the toning varying from dark to light from the rim to center of the coin. It seems that as the toning deepens it also becomes blotchy as well with shades of purple and probably hints of other colors that I can not see (I'm very colorblind unfortunately). Granted it makes the coins look great once the toning is deep enough, but this is NOT natural and therefore not desirable IMO.

Come to think of it Michael it was your spouse post last month that caused me to start looking for pcgs toning. After looking at close to dozen or more pcgs AGEs at the show over the weekend it was clear to me this is a MAJOR problem. Unfortunately the fact even the spouse coins tone means that it's not just the Au/Cu alloy of the AGEs that has a problem. I bet the issue may be similar to the milk spot issue. The general consensus is that milk spots develop on ASEs due to the manufacturing process. At some point the planchets are rinsed and it's believed that wherever any of the solution remains that is the are that will probably develop the dreaded milk spot in the future. I wonder if the US mint does something similar with gold planchets. It's possible that the off-gassing inside the pcgs slab is simply interacting with trace amounts of some type of rinse still on the surface of the coin. I just don't know for certain.

What we do know for certain is that it's not just 22kt US gold, but also 24k US gold. The next logical question to ask is do other gold coins from different mints also display similar toning. Like I said I need to do a lot more research on this, but for starters if anyone has seen any modern toned gold coins than they should post about them here.

[michael]

Here is the image Michael uploaded of his spouse coins:
14181

The Monroe has clearly darkened quite a bit and is consistent with what I've seen. The coins I studied this past weekend were all typically darker than the norm with the toning varying from dark to light from the rim to center of the coin. It seems that as the toning deepens it also becomes blotchy as well with shades of purple and probably hints of other colors that I can not see (I'm very colorblind unfortunately). Granted it makes the coins look great once the toning is deep enough, but this is NOT natural and therefore not desirable IMO.

Come to think of it Michael it was your spouse post last month that caused me to start looking for pcgs toning. After looking at close to dozen or more pcgs AGEs at the show over the weekend it was clear to me this is a MAJOR problem. Unfortunately the fact even the spouse coins tone means that it's not just the Au/Cu alloy of the AGEs that has a problem. I bet the issue may be similar to the milk spot issue. The general consensus is that milk spots develop on ASEs due to the manufacturing process. At some point the planchets are rinsed and it's believed that wherever any of the solution remains that is the are that will probably develop the dreaded milk spot in the future. I wonder if the US mint does something similar with gold planchets. It's possible that the off-gassing inside the pcgs slab is simply interacting with trace amounts of some type of rinse still on the surface of the coin. I just don't know for certain.

What we do know for certain is that it's not just 22kt US gold, but also 24k US gold. The next logical question to ask is do other gold coins from different mints also display similar toning. Like I said I need to do a lot more research on this, but for starters if anyone has seen any modern toned gold coins than they should post about them here.

I also have a 1995(i think mayber 1996) Torchrunner gold commem graded by PCGS MS69 in which the coin is toned it is much darker than my other Unc. coins

[rodzm]

Well FWIW here is a half sovereign from Isle of Man that developed some toning. Not sure if it was before or after slabbing but its toned in a PCGS holder nonetheless. Maybe it happened before, maybe after.

[1380gu]

This coin toned well after being slabbed. It looks great in person though. Much better than the photo my iPhone could do.

14611

[pianogold]

I dont believe any of the TPGs state their slabs are airtight?

Also, there's plenty of chance for coins to be affected before slabbing that would cause them to tone later...

[Irons]

This whole slabbed coin fad isn't going to end well, IMO.

Luck to you all!

[cpthnsolo]

In case anyone here hasn't been to a major show and seen pcgs slab toning in person, here, have a look at these :eek::

282382823928240282412824228243282442824528246

[HistoryStudent]

THIS SUCKS!

You aught a see my Wright Bros. MS70 - simply awful!

[cpthnsolo]

HS take a pic and upload it please. If the pic is too big, e-mail it to me and I'll crop/resize it for you :).

[Kingfisher]

I am not a collector and this is another con, IMO. The toning added value thing strikes me as another version of the Emperor's New Clothes.

[HistoryStudent]

HS take a pic and upload it please. If the pic is too big, e-mail it to me and I'll crop/resize it for you :).


Take your PICK guess who is the WORST!

Same EXACT coin same exact grade BUT one FUBAR has a LEAKY slab. (Hint Company begins with a "P" for PHUCKED)

Toning is really UGLY!

[HistoryStudent]

HS take a pic and upload it please. If the pic is too big, e-mail it to me and I'll crop/resize it for you :).

PIA but I did it for you. That lake is so deep. And the metal detector got lucky. ~ HS

[newmisty]

I had a Jamestown twice as bad as that (69 though). Same edge toning too. Looked almost exactly like that but much worse. Got rid of it for a bit over spot after fees.

[EO 11110]

i have the same issue on my pcgs bu 1995 torch runner $5 gold

it is attractive toning (so far)

i'm an ngc guy mostly...but when i can get a good deal i'll take pcgs too

[badhop55]

Has anyone seen/had any problems with their 5 oz ATBs? I've check mine (both TPGs) and raw and see no problems. If it comes back that these are not having problems then I would have to wonder why some products and not others?

[cpthnsolo]

Has anyone seen/had any problems with their 5 oz ATBs? I've check mine (both TPGs) and raw and see no problems. If it comes back that these are not having problems then I would have to wonder why some products and not others?

I have slabbed ATBs from both NGC and PCGS and will have to give them a look at some point soon. I know when I was inspecting a few P pucks last month roughly 1 in 3 raw coins had developed milk spots already.

[Mr Paradise]

Reminds me of the star wars guys that spend big bucks having their old action figures still on the card graded by AFA. Five years later the bubbles yellow and your stuck with a slabbed piece of junk.

[southfork]

Wouldnt they have to have a vacum in order not to tone? Could be they switched their plastic material or maybe a Chicom fake.

[Irons]

Wouldnt they have to have a vacum in order not to tone? Could be they switched their plastic material or maybe a Chicom fake.

DING DING DING!!!!

[HistoryStudent]

I think they eat too much Mexican Food (beans and tortillas) in Irvine/Newport Beach (PCGS) and the GAS gets into the (lunch time) slabs.

:36_11_6::36_11_6::36_11_6:

Ding Ding Ding is a train stopper. We once had an employee that was a Ding Ding Ding who complained she was late for
work because a TRAIN stopped her on the Santa Ana Freeway coming to work. Only problem is that there never are any trains crossing any freeways
in So. Cal.

HA HA HA

[macrohedge]

If possible, I will go with NGC slabs in the future

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-W-10-LUCY-HAYES-MS70-PCGS-FIRST-STRIKE-/190745726467?pt=Bullion_US&hash=item2c6954ce03


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-W-10-LUCY-HAYES-MS69-PCGS-FIRST-STRIKE-/310491773047?pt=Bullion_US&hash=item484ac07877

[badhop55]

Looked at my 2010 5 oz ATB sets, 4 raw, 4 PCGS slabbed. 2 of the raw coins each had one small spot. None of the slabbed showed any spotting.

[SirOzzyyzzO]

Hello All and Merry Christmas to you all, as well - your families too,

Some of you know, I suffered a lot due to Hurricane Sandy. At this present moment, I have 37 coins at NGC "Scheduled For Grading", that first went to NCS to be conserved.

First, I want and feel the need to say, NCS called me upon inspection of my coins and offered me their condolences, because I described why they were wet and some turning green. Then, the gentleman on the phone said something like, I am not sure we can guarantee you any of the same grades, however, we are going to do our best, and we will extend to you the lowest conservation fee across the board and the same for the slab fees. I sent them some nicely graded coins and some highly sought after ones too... I heard the sadness in his voice... ANYWAY, I thought that was a beautiful & kind gesture - they didn't have to do that! I've only ever had great experiences with NCS or now NGC's conservation service. When I was down in Sarasota NCS was not officially part of NGC, and I am glad they partnered up. Again, my hat is off to them...

However, and mostly pertaining to the theme of this thread, ALL the coins sent to them were either PCGS or NGC coins - nothing raw or any other third grade service, and ALL that were sent in had gotten wet inside! Initially, some of the PCGS coins appeared to be perfectly OK the first few days, but what I, initially, missed was that the blue paper, where the grade is printed on itself, was actually saturated on each and every PCGS coin that was partially submerged. I didn't notice that until I had time to inspect them all and closer. At first, I even thought they were perfectly fine! As for the NGC coins that were partially submerged, also - it was hit or miss, but the ones that were wet, were wet all over the coin and especially the stuff that surrounds the coin inside the holder (The white part)... FWIW, all of these coins were coins in a box, atop of my 6ft. shelf, that gave way once the level got too high in my basement and jostled everything around and toppled things. This box was half in the water by the time I retrieved it, so it may have been fully submerged at one point, because I didn't get to it until some water had receded already.

Third, I had 80 1996 PCGS MS68 and or MS67 SAE coins that I submitted back in 2005. Some assorted Pandas and other foreign NGC slabbed silver coins - believe it or not, some MS-66/67 Kennedy halves too - all sitting on the floor in my boiler room, in a safe, before the storm, so ultimately they were ground level and sitting in Salt water the longest, ALL COMPLETELY CORRODED & PITTED by the time I got to them. In addition, the salt water ate away at the holograms on their backs. I was holding them there, not occupying precious bank vault space where my better coins were/are, because these were mostly all crud numismatic coins that I took chances on years ago & was hoping to hold and make my slab fees back on when silver rose to $60/$70 one day... Now, I am twice as Ph-Uh-K'd with them... I cannot even keep and or sell them in their holders because the holograms are gone, makes them look like BOGUS slabbed, non-collectable, green pitted silver dollars!

Moreover, aside from a few other things, I think my Hurricane lesson/experiment using both NGC & PCGS slabs as water and or air-tight Guinea pigs seems to have proven that they in-deed are not all waterproof - lol - So, does that make them Not Air Tight too I dare to guess???? I have yet to get to my bank vault, because the bank was hit hard and is still closed... Yet, I think I may be lucky since my boxes are chest level. But, they have yet to call me and I just think that is bad business on their part, but - nobody expected this amount of damage/carnage. So, I am sweating it out day by day to find out if those PCGS and NGC slabs shielded them or not???? I wish PCGS and or NGC made an airtight or water tight guarantee, but they don't cause they ain't, but, then again, this is not a perfect world... Lastly, I ran a small coin business from my basement. I lost all my empty OGPing, all my empty UHR boxes, all my pennies, all my 2009 silver proof sets... On and on, and, my biggest client called the day before the storm and asked what I had, so that is why I even had more coins then usual there... FWIW - I have two German Shepherds and one Shotgun that all resided down there until the Bitch sandy came along...

Just as a side note, regarding the pics posted within this thread, I've always thought that toning on PCGS GAE's is a gorgeous aspect of them! It breathes life into a monotonous looking series. However, that is simply my opinion and I'd tell ya I hate toning if I were trying to buy it from ya... lol Good night all and, again, Merry Christmas!