View Full Version : Self Defense: Always shoot to kill or no?
silver solution
06-17-2010, 02:36 AM
1) Most people are not good enough marksmen to hit anything other than the trunk of the body.
2) If someone is within 7yds of you then the odds are that they can reach you even if you shoot them in the torso. You will end up wearing their knife if you're trying to hit feet, legs, etc.
3) Most shooters only target shoot and have no experience trying to hit a target when their heart is racing and andreniline (SP?) is pumping.
It is much different when heart is racing and the andreniline is pumping. I know and getting older does not help that, at least in my case.
You always shoot to stop the threat. That is the only reason to shoot. No threat - no shoot. There is no other reason to shoot.
With that said, a firearm is considered deadly force. Always. If you are shooting at someone it is assumed that you understand that you will very likely kill the person you are shooting at. It is understood and assumed. Do not shoot at anyone you do not wish to kill.
While I understand the sentiment, I am VERY concerned for anyone who has a firearm who is planning to shoot to wound only. I had a female friend express this to me one time and I told her that until she got over that idea, I recommend that she not have a firearm -- because that kind of thinking will get you killed.
If you think about it, there is only one reason to fire a firearm at someone - and that is to stop a potentially deadly threat. Someone is threatening to do you severe harm and/or kill you. That is the threat, and you shoot to stop that, and you keep shooting until that threat is stopped.
With that in mind, there is NO situation I can think of where you would risk attempting to 'shoot to wound'. There is a maniac trying to kill you and/or your family or someone close to you. If there were not, you would not be shooting because you only shoot to stop a serious threat. You can not risk half-hearted measures to stop a SERIOUS threat. You do not shoot to wound. You shoot only to stop a serious threat.
It is an idea that you must accept if you are to own/carry a firearm for self-defense. There is no shoot to wound. That idea will get you killed. I struggled with this personally and I think I got it right.
You and several others certainly do have it right, thanks for your thoughts. Always shoot to stop COM and repeat as neccessary.
Lt Dan
06-17-2010, 10:35 AM
You shoot to live! Always!
Officer/Judge, the last thing I wanted to do was shoot anyone, but I feared for my/wife's/child's life and didn't know what else to do.
Russkie
06-17-2010, 12:52 PM
You shoot to live! Always!
Officer/Judge, the last thing I wanted to do was shoot anyone, but I feared for my/wife's/child's life and didn't know what else to do.
" I feared for my life" is the mantra.....
Avoid phrases like " I don't know what happened"
Rusty Shackelford
06-17-2010, 01:36 PM
Shoot to kill. However, there is a situation were I have told myself I would shoot just to wound. Screw with my kids/wife in a bad immoral way and I will hunt you down, wound your ass, then string you up in seclusion and make you wish that I blew your brains out.
Juristic Person
06-17-2010, 03:39 PM
Shoot to kill. However, there is a situation were I have told myself I would shoot just to wound. Screw with my kids/wife in a bad immoral way and I will hunt you down, wound your ass, then string you up in seclusion and make you wish that I blew your brains out.
Like I said, it depends on the situation.
If I have to draw my gun and pull the trigger in self defense, my intention is to stop the threat that is coming at me and that person will likely die from their wounds.
But when the other guy has a knife, I feel confident enough that I may be able to stop the threat without drawing my gun.
Not to mention, you may not always be armed so you better learn how to defend yourself without one.
gonzo
06-17-2010, 10:09 PM
You always shoot to stop the threat. That is the only reason to shoot. No threat - no shoot. There is no other reason to shoot.
With that said, a firearm is considered deadly force. Always. If you are shooting at someone it is assumed that you understand that you will very likely kill the person you are shooting at. It is understood and assumed. Do not shoot at anyone you do not wish to kill.
While I understand the sentiment, I am VERY concerned for anyone who has a firearm who is planning to shoot to wound only. I had a female friend express this to me one time and I told her that until she got over that idea, I recommend that she not have a firearm -- because that kind of thinking will get you killed.
If you think about it, there is only one reason to fire a firearm at someone - and that is to stop a potentially deadly threat. Someone is threatening to do you severe harm and/or kill you. That is the threat, and you shoot to stop that, and you keep shooting until that threat is stopped.
With that in mind, there is NO situation I can think of where you would risk attempting to 'shoot to wound'. There is a maniac trying to kill you and/or your family or someone close to you. If there were not, you would not be shooting because you only shoot to stop a serious threat. You can not risk half-hearted measures to stop a SERIOUS threat. You do not shoot to wound. You shoot only to stop a serious threat.
It is an idea that you must accept if you are to own/carry a firearm for self-defense. There is no shoot to wound. That idea will get you killed. I struggled with this personally and I think I got it right.
Good points and I am not really concerned about it that much, if confronted with deadly force I would not hesitate to shoot to kill, I spent 8 years in the Marines and 3 in special forces and recieved very good training in self defense and shooting to stop threats, but I just really wanted to have this conversation to see how others felt about it and so far I am really enjoying the discussion that has ensued.
As I said before for my own conscience I would always prefer not to kill someone no matter what they are doing or plan to do to me and would rather just shoot to stop the threat and keep them alive, but as most have indicated here such thinking is nearly impossible during the split second you have to make the decision to shoot or not to shoot so, center mass is the way to go and what I was always trained to do.
Thanks for the input, all of you.
gonzo
06-17-2010, 10:13 PM
Shoot to kill. However, there is a situation were I have told myself I would shoot just to wound. Screw with my kids/wife in a bad immoral way and I will hunt you down, wound your ass, then string you up in seclusion and make you wish that I blew your brains out.
I pretty much can agree with that, that is really the only situation where I would feel obligated to seek revenge, ****ing with a loved one, especially wife or child, there will be consequences for that.
gonzo
06-17-2010, 10:18 PM
In a critical situation, who the hell is going to know the difference between shooting to kill and shooting to injure? You shoot center mass.
And who is skilled enough to shoot non-vital places during a firefight?
The original question seems to come from watching too many Hollywood movies.
The real question is when to draw the weapon. If the situation is getting critical, there is a chance the weapon could be a deterrent.
I've drawn a handgun before on the street, and it in fact saved the asses of me and several others I was with. But it's a dangerous game. An armed, threatening gang scattered, but they could have drawn guns as well. We had to get the hell away quick, because they were regrouping to counter-attack, this time with confidence and the knowledge that we had a firearm.
Certainly, in your home, the racking of a shotgun is the best signal to send any would-be intruder.
I would always give the assailant the benefit of running away before I shoot. But then again, I AM a Christian...
So don't shoot unless the assailant gives you no other choice, of course. But don't think you can control things enough to distinguish between lethal and non-lethal shooting, unless you're descended from Annie Oakley or something.
If the person is down and disarmed, I would never gratuitously shoot them, and I think no reasonable person would.
I'll tell you what was scary in the above situation....
As soon as the people saw my weapon and reacted, I was emboldened. Something inside me took over, something predatory, and I was really ready to shoot whoever came at us- or whoever simply disobeyed my command to get back. I became very agressive for about 30 seconds, then very nervous and shakey.
It was one of those "fork in the road" moments that could have changed many people's lives forever.
Carrying a firearm is serious business. Caution, wisdom and kindness need to come first.
LOL good points I appreciate your thoughts but it really has nothing to do with watching too many movies. I am a fairly well skilled shooter involved in a lot of competitive target shooting etc, I wouldnt consider myself up there with the best of them but I can pretty much place a shot within an inch of where I intend to 95% of the time depending on conditions.
This is just a discussion that I have had with many other shooters in the past including in training classes in the USMC in my time in the military and I wanted to see what sort of responses I would get here at GIM, so far so good, very good input all around.
GoldToHold
06-17-2010, 10:59 PM
Gonzo,
You should watch the videos of real life confrontations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbyFnrtUtJQ&feature=related
no tap rack!? even on the "second chance". thanks for the vid and food for thought.
Saul Mine
06-17-2010, 11:28 PM
Ok, let's say I have this small fire, not really a major threat. Should I only pretend to put it out? Like maybe point the extinguisher to one side so I only wound the fire without extinguishing it?
Another question I've been wondering about: Should I keep my fire extinguishers loaded all the time? It seems so dangerous. I mean they could go off by accident, and they make such a mess. Should I lock up my extinguishers to be sure the kids can't get them?
gonzo
06-18-2010, 01:56 AM
Ok, let's say I have this small fire, not really a major threat. Should I only pretend to put it out? Like maybe point the extinguisher to one side so I only wound the fire without extinguishing it?
Another question I've been wondering about: Should I keep my fire extinguishers loaded all the time? It seems so dangerous. I mean they could go off by accident, and they make such a mess. Should I lock up my extinguishers to be sure the kids can't get them?
Yea thats certainly one way of looking at it isnt it. Thanks for the input, good questions indeed.
gonzo
06-18-2010, 01:57 AM
no tap rack!? even on the "second chance". thanks for the vid and food for thought. This is a cool video indeed and so are the others posted, I had never seen them before, food for thought for sure! I mean holy **** man that dude just kept on coming, scary for sure.
Also you have to consider someone acting like that may be on PCP and shooting someone on PCP in the leg or just trying to wound them is not going to stop them, what it will do is piss them off more.
I am not a huge fan of authority and LEO by extension but man they sure have a tough job, you just never know what you are dealing with around the next bend. It takes a special breed indeed, to go out everyday and put your life on the line like that, especially cops who work in notoriously bad neighborhoods and drug infested areas, guys on PCP, crack, meth, coke etc, are dangerous as **** and even worse when they are armed. Drunks too.
Harvey
06-18-2010, 04:46 PM
Shoot to 'wound'? ... and be looking over your shoulder forever? nah.
Shoot to 'stop' = double taps to the COM until the threat has stopped.
RoadKing
06-19-2010, 12:35 AM
This is a very good point and exactly as I have been taught as far as language goes it is always, as you say, " I shot to stop the threat sir." And that is all you say.
Well worth repeating...
If you happen to say anything additional though, and you probably will, especially with adrenalin pumping through you, and the cops pushing hard to be the hero for a quick solve.....you can hurt yourself badly in a legal sort of way.
If at all possible, I'd try to train myself to say absolutely nothing at all. Let them arrest you, which they'll do anyways.....then get a good attorney, with lots of experience, and let him/her do ALL the speaking on your behalf. There is nothing harder for an attorney to undo, than to defend something you might have said, that the police have written down in evidence and construed incorrectly.
In the mean time shake your head in a negative fashion, and just use the fact you'll be in shock that you took a life, to bide your time till you get that attorney. SAY NOTHING
Just my opinion,
RK
5150female
06-19-2010, 10:35 PM
I had to get this in. This is a Colt .45 my dad gave to me. My favorite customization he did is the laser etched "Smile Wait for Flash".He got it done in a place in Idaho by mail. Sorry the clarity is a kiss lacking.
They were armed?
With what?
Be well,
In a critical situation, who the hell is going to know the difference between shooting to kill and shooting to injure? You shoot center mass.
And who is skilled enough to shoot non-vital places during a firefight?
The original question seems to come from watching too many Hollywood movies.
The real question is when to draw the weapon. If the situation is getting critical, there is a chance the weapon could be a deterrent.
I've drawn a handgun before on the street, and it in fact saved the asses of me and several others I was with. But it's a dangerous game. An armed, threatening gang scattered, but they could have drawn guns as well. We had to get the hell away quick, because they were regrouping to counter-attack, this time with confidence and the knowledge that we had a firearm.
Certainly, in your home, the racking of a shotgun is the best signal to send any would-be intruder.
I would always give the assailant the benefit of running away before I shoot. But then again, I AM a Christian...
So don't shoot unless the assailant gives you no other choice, of course. But don't think you can control things enough to distinguish between lethal and non-lethal shooting, unless you're descended from Annie Oakley or something.
If the person is down and disarmed, I would never gratuitously shoot them, and I think no reasonable person would.
I'll tell you what was scary in the above situation....
As soon as the people saw my weapon and reacted, I was emboldened. Something inside me took over, something predatory, and I was really ready to shoot whoever came at us- or whoever simply disobeyed my command to get back. I became very agressive for about 30 seconds, then very nervous and shakey.
It was one of those "fork in the road" moments that could have changed many people's lives forever.
Carrying a firearm is serious business. Caution, wisdom and kindness need to come first.
gonzo
06-20-2010, 01:38 PM
I had to get this in. This is a Colt .45 my dad gave to me. My favorite customization he did is the laser etched "Smile Wait for Flash".He got it done in a place in Idaho by mail. Sorry the clarity is a kiss lacking. Sweet pistol. I have the same exact one, its an officers model Colt 1911 .45acp. They really hold their value, take good care of that baby.
gonzo
06-20-2010, 01:40 PM
If you happen to say anything additional though, and you probably will, especially with adrenalin pumping through you, and the cops pushing hard to be the hero for a quick solve.....you can hurt yourself badly in a legal sort of way.
If at all possible, I'd try to train myself to say absolutely nothing at all. Let them arrest you, which they'll do anyways.....then get a good attorney, with lots of experience, and let him/her do ALL the speaking on your behalf. There is nothing harder for an attorney to undo, than to defend something you might have said, that the police have written down in evidence and construed incorrectly.
In the mean time shake your head in a negative fashion, and just use the fact you'll be in shock that you took a life, to bide your time till you get that attorney. SAY NOTHING
Just my opinion,
RK
+ 1000
As an attorney this is the best advice I can give: say nothing, dont ever talk to the police unless your attorney is present. Never, under any circumstances.*
*This is not legal advice only friendly discourse for pusposes of this discussion only.
http://www.seadogbytes.com/misc/WolfShootShovel.jpg
"Under any circumstances"?
Is this possible?
If a criminal breaks into your home, and ends up dead, you have to say something to 911.
"A man has become dead in my home."
Police come.
What is your name?"
"What happened?"
"Did you know this person?"
Have any other guns in the home?"
How can you say nothing?
At least say "my name is "x", I live here, I will speak further only with my attourney present."
I assume that is what you meant.
Be well.
PS I understand that the law is very politically applied, diffcult to predict..
+ 1000
As an attorney this is the best advice I can give: say nothing, dont ever talk to the police unless your attorney is present. Never, under any circumstances.*
*This is not legal advice only friendly discourse for pusposes of this discussion only.
OK to call your attourney before 911?
Be well,
+ 1000
As an attorney this is the best advice I can give: say nothing, dont ever talk to the police unless your attorney is present. Never, under any circumstances.*
*This is not legal advice only friendly discourse for pusposes of this discussion only.
gonzo
06-20-2010, 10:27 PM
OK to call your attourney before 911?
Be well,
I cant offer legal advice over the internet but as a matter of friendly chat here on a discussion forum I would say a resounding no, it would not make you look very good if you stopped to make any calls to anyone before you called 911 to report whatever it is that has taken place, but you are not required to offer anything other than an address to 911, and I would call my attorney immediately after that call.
gonzo
06-20-2010, 10:30 PM
"Under any circumstances"?
Is this possible?
If a criminal breaks into your home, and ends up dead, you have to say something to 911.
"A man has become dead in my home."
Police come.
What is your name?"
"What happened?"
"Did you know this person?"
Have any other guns in the home?"
How can you say nothing?
At least say "my name is "x", I live here, I will speak further only with my attourney present."
I assume that is what you meant.
Be well.
PS I understand that the law is very politically applied, diffcult to predict..
Yes thats basic common sense, you can give your name but I would personally not get in to any details until my attorney is present. Thats just me personally speaking though, not professionally, you would need to do whats best for you in such a situation. For me, I would never speak to LEO without an attorney present other than to give very basic information such as name, age etc.
S.McDuck
06-20-2010, 10:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI
And what exactly are you supposed to tell 911?
Be well.
I cant offer legal advice over the internet but as a matter of friendly chat here on a discussion forum I would say a resounding no, it would not make you look very good if you stopped to make any calls to anyone before you called 911 to report whatever it is that has taken place, but you are not required to offer anything other than an address to 911, and I would call my attorney immediately after that call.
MoMoney
06-21-2010, 12:43 AM
Yep, my S & W is custom-fitted with a crimson trace laser and I like that big, red dot!
Defenestrator
06-21-2010, 03:39 AM
As an attorney this is the best advice I can give: say nothing, dont ever talk to the police unless your attorney is present. Never, under any circumstances.
Yes thats basic common sense, you can give your name but I would personally not get in to any details until my attorney is present. Thats just me personally speaking though, not professionally, you would need to do whats best for you in such a situation. For me, I would never speak to LEO without an attorney present other than to give very basic information such as name, age etc. {emphasis added}
As an attorney, maybe you can answer a question that's always bothered me. Why do police tend to respect it when you hire an attorney who says "My client won't be answering any farther questions." and yet they keep badgering a suspect who doesn't hire an attorney but says "I won't be answering any of your questions."?
Basically I'm asking why will the police fail to respect my rights if I demand them but they'll respect them if a member of the B.A.R. does?
In response to your original question I would say that if you're going to point a gun at someone you prepare yourself to kill them and pray you don't have to.
gonzo
06-21-2010, 05:21 AM
As an attorney, maybe you can answer a question that's always bothered me. Why do police tend to respect it when you hire an attorney who says "My client won't be answering any farther questions." and yet they keep badgering a suspect who doesn't hire an attorney but says "I won't be answering any of your questions."?
Basically I'm asking why will the police fail to respect my rights if I demand them but they'll respect them if a member of the B.A.R. does?
In response to your original question I would say that if you're going to point a gun at someone you prepare yourself to kill them and pray you don't have to.
Its a good question and I see it often and it sucks, I agree with you. I really cant say why they do that because I dont know other than to suggest that it is because you alone arent in position to force them to respect you but the attorney, as an officer of the court, certainly is. In short, they dont take you seriously because there isnt much you can do to them if they dont, but the attorney on the other hand, can bring down the wrath of god on them if they violate your rights in his or her presence. Without an attorney its simply your word against the LEO and you lose everytime in that game. You know what I am saying.
Also I am not a member of the bar or a practicing attorney, just a law school graduate at this point, but that will change soon I hope.
gonzo
06-21-2010, 05:33 AM
And what exactly are you supposed to tell 911?
Be well.
I can only speak for myself but from what I have learned, if you have shot someone in your home in self defense I would call 9-11 and say something to the effect " Hello my name is such and such and I live at such and such I need an ambulance and police here asap, someone broke in to my house and was threatening my life and I was forced to defend myself to stop the threat, please send help as soon as possible, click."
This is just speaking for myself, I have never been in the situaton and I dont think there is any standard answer, for me, personally, I would offer as little information as possible until your attorney arrives and then let them speak for you.
Its important to remember in such a situation you havent done anything wrong but on the other hand people often offer more than they need to and things get twisted around and come back to bite you in the ass.
basic info, someone is hurt, please send help, hang up.
I think this is a good question that merits more discussion here, perhaps others will have more to add or perhaps someone who has been in the situation before can tell us what worked for them.
Again keep in mind you dont need to lie or make anything up as you have done nothing wrong and you have nothing to hide so I wouldnt act if you do, be honest and tell the truth, thats always the best policy when you havent done anything wrong. Its just that when speaking to LEO they are trained to get you tongue twisted and in such a situation you are already nervous and upset and who knows what may come out of your mouth that may mean one thing to you but something else to a trained LEO. Let the attorney handle that, thats what they are trained to do.
This isnt legal advice in any way, just friendly chat on a discussion forum. Ultimately one needs to be informed and learn on their own what works best for them. Its a case by case thing.
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