Socialised health care

[argentos]

Most GIM members seem to be against socialised medicine. Being a Brit and having little knowledge of US medical matters I had not given the matter much thought.

Then I saw Tom D's post Scared the s*** out of myself this AM, wife too and realised that on an English board we would not be reading such a post and started thinking.

If someone collapses here it is automatic for us to call 999 almost before they hit the floor and a paramedic (probably in a car or on a motorbike) would be sent ASAP - before the Ambulance which would have been despatched at the same time. The paramedic would have assessed Tom and probably sent him to A&E for tests. All this would be "free" at the point of use, paid for out of National Insurance deductions and general taxation.

Although US healthcare is supposed by many to be the best in the world and we moan about ours all the time, the figures suggest that US residents pay almost twice as much to live slightly shorter lives.

Below are numbers from 2008, which I found on http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=110997469:

[GOLDZILLA]

Don't matter if its paid for or not. If you think you might die, you're gonna be scared... Tom D (if I remember right) is a veteran, so his healthcare is probably free (moneywise), although V.A. hospitals sometimes leave something to be desired -- I think he gets to go there free. I guess we'll have to wait until he replies to know.

[argentos]

I do hope he goes soon!

[shades]

My private healthcare is pretty useless, doesn't contribute much to my gap. What it does do, is it gets me seen in a timely fashion, and this can literally be the difference between life and death sometimes...

It's sad, but the future is going to have a very two-level healthcare system in most western nations, those who can afford it and those who cannot. This is what socialised healthcare is trying to balance a little bit, so I'm not totally against the concept. I'm against the concept that goobermint thinks it is a free license to tax and waste..

[argentos]

.....I'm against the concept that goobermint thinks it is a free license to tax and waste....

Isn't most of the excess medical cost in the US down to the high cost of medical malpractice insurance and the consequential ordering of every possible expensive lab test to guard against claims?

[keepitlow]

We already have a socialized education system. We all pay for educating the kids through taxes. And some of us use this system and others don't, but we all pay. The people that don't want to use the public education system go the private education route.

So it should be with healthcare.

Tax people 1% to 6% depending on income and start a gov run healthcare system that can be used by ANY citizen in need. If that tax is not enough revenue, then start charging foreigners flying into the US an arrival and departure tax. Or start charging a 1% SHC (socialized health care) sales tax.

And tell all those new doctors in and out of med school the must work for the gov for 2 yrs with the socialized med plan. Tell them if you want to be n MD and make big bucks work in a cushy office and squeeze boobs all day you are going to have to give back to society a little before you go off to your practice.

If some of the citizens don't like receiving socialized government run healthcare, then they can always go the private healthcare route and pay their own way. Just as they can do with private education, if public schools are not to their liking. This is the only way a socialized healthcare proposal would work in the US of A. You need duplicate healthcare systems to satisfy all comers. The rich and the poor that cannot afford the rich healthcare system.

If the government has to limit care for the elderly, then do so. Sure give seniors good med care, but if it comes to hundreds of thousands of dollars for life support, tell them they are free to pay their way to private healthcare, but the gov and the people can't afford a half million dollars for every senior in the country just to keep them on ventilators.

And I'm not a young guy bashing seniors either,

I'm near 60 myself. But I realize that we can't keep printing endless money in the US of A. We must all start to think of what is best for society, as our world is fast decomposing before our very eyes.

Most important, put this plan to a NATIONAL VOTE....Let the people decide what they want.

Oh ... there is one fly in the ointment with my suggestion. The problem is getting a bunch of greedy, lying, power hungry rhetoricians in DC to oversee socialized medicine in a way that is not corrupt and money squandering like Medicare is. As one of my mentors said....'You can't regulate integrity.'

[shades]

Isn't most of the excess medical cost in the US down to the high cost of medical malpractice insurance and the consequential ordering of every possible expensive lab test to guard against claims?

This is also true, because the legal industry in the U.S. is probably one of the most powerful on the planet, and patients are encouraged to sue for the most minor of reasons.

A friend of mine is a skilled dentist just starting out with his own practice, and at one point was beside himself that a patient would sue him, due to something he could not have forseen.

Life contains risks and uncertainty, and people should recognise that. If there is real malpractice, sure go ahead and sue, but the system encourages people to sue at the drop of a hat.

Doctors however good they may be, are still human, and are not perfect biological machines that can solve every situation for every patient.

In short. I agree with you. This century should be more one of personal responsibility.

[Treasure Searcher]

I listen to a Canadian radio station almost daily. From time to time, their news has stories on the Canadian HealthCare system. Not a perfect system at all. I used to date two different Canadian gals and they told me about the nightmares their relatives had with the Socialized Canadian HealthCare System.

While the US system is not perfect, I would not prefer a Socialized system.

[teamnick]

Isn't most of the excess medical cost in the US down to the high cost of medical malpractice insurance and the consequential ordering of every possible expensive lab test to guard against claims?

Bear in mind that the typical doctor graduates with 150k in debt as well. (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abou...ent-debt.shtml)

Doctors are paying huge amounts of money to pay for their schooling, pay medical malpractice insurance, and then get screwed by health insurance. A huge amount of money goes to supporting a for profit heath insurance industry that exists to divert money from actual healthcare into CEOs and lawyers pockets. Every dollar in profit realized by the health insurance industry is a dollar that is not doing anything to actually improve anyone's health (except maybe enlarge the CEO's waistline)

Also, Americans as a whole eat rather unhealthy. Isn't high-fructose corn syrup is banned in the UK? It's extremely difficult to avoid in the US.

[00nightstorm]

I wonder what you Brits are going to do when your government goes bankrupt since there is no protection for your healthcare benefits against government insolvency. Of course, if you were one of the lucky old chaps who died recently you will have gotten a pretty good deal, it's the younger generation that ends up paying for most of it and the whole system is bankrupt by the time it is their turn to collect.

[GoldWampum]

Don't matter if its paid for or not. If you think you might die, you're gonna be scared... Tom D (if I remember right) is a veteran, so his healthcare is probably free (moneywise), although V.A. hospitals sometimes leave something to be desired -- I think he gets to go there free. I guess we'll have to wait until he replies to know.

It's graduated on last year's income and you can make too much to even qualify for it and if you have other insurance it pays first. It's only "free" for vets who are pretty poor. Payments are kind of like an HMO, again, unless you are pretty poor.

There is an annual means test.

[GoldWampum]

The point about social healthcare though isn't cost... it's the idea of participating with a gun to your head. A lot like other government programs. People should have a choice in how to handle their health options. Socialized medicine, IMO encourages people to live less healthy lives as they think free medical care rather than healthy living.

American health problems and short lives are more related to their lifestyle than whether or not the healthcare here is good or bad. Live healthier, eat healthier is one choice for instance. People argue the wrong concepts about healthcare IMO and that's why it's so ****ed up.

[GOLDZILLA]

As a libertarian, I would have no problem if people wanted socailized healthcare -- the only caveat being that anyone can opt out if they want.

[GoldWampum]

As a libertarian, I would have no problem if people wanted socailized healthcare -- the only caveat being that anyone can opt out if they want.

They already have that, it's called an HMO. If the gov runs it, guarantee it will infect those who opt out. Private socialization is a contractural agreement. Gov involved can come to no good. Besides, nothing in the Constitution authorizes them to be involved.

[argentos]

I wonder what you Brits are going to do when your government goes bankrupt since there is no protection for your healthcare benefits against government insolvency.

Don't worry. H.M. Guvmint has ordered a squadron of Chinooks fitted with printing presses.

Of course, if you were one of the lucky old chaps who died recently you will have gotten a pretty good deal, it's the younger generation that ends up paying for most of it and the whole system is bankrupt by the time it is their turn to collect.

Well I got a conditional slowing of the death clock today. Colonoscopist (free to me, $3000 in USofA I think) shoved his camera as far as the caecum, snipped out four polyps on the way out and found nothing else of interest.



However the main reason for my initial post was to draw attention to the fact that because we do not pay at the point of use for paramedics, emergency ambulances and A&E, we automatically call for help or go to A&E without having to think about cost. So we are much more likely to be treated before the golden hour is up and I have been told that in many cases early indifferent treatment is better than the most expert of late treatment. The downside of this is that some folk call emergency for the slightest little thing.

[latemetal]

The problem is those people who don't really opt out, but show up at the ER because they are sick or injured and expect treatment just as if they had paid in. Just like that bozo that wanted the firemen to put out his house fire after he declined to pay for fire services.

As a libertarian, I would have no problem if people wanted socailized healthcare -- the only caveat being that anyone can opt out if they want.