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Thread: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

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    Default Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    I've always thought silver confiscation was more probable than gold confiscation. This article covers the points that concern me.

    Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    A question which I am regularly asked by readers (especially U.S. readers) is whether I believe that government(s) would once again confiscate the gold held by individuals. The question is a reasonable one, given the U.S.’s prior history of “gold confiscation” during a time of deep economic strife.

    “Executive Order 6102”, issued by the Roosevelt administration on April 5, 1933 commanded U.S. citizens to turn over all of their bullion holdings, with a few limited exceptions. The official exchange rate for all gold confiscated was $20.67 US, which was the official, fixed price for gold at that time.

    There are many observations to be made about this event, and once examined it should be more obvious to people to what extent that threat exists today. To begin with, we must look to the purpose behind that Executive Order. Here, what we see is that there was more than economic strife which motivated this action.

    By that time, Hitler had already risen in Germany, and the severely flawed Treaty of Versailles (which resulted from the Armistice of World War I) was increasingly seen as a driver of new hostilities in Europe, rather than the basis for a lasting peace. With the prospects for major, European war once again rising, it was imperative to the U.S. government that it have sufficient financial reserves to engage in its own military build-up.

    Here, we must remember that the global monetary system was firmly tied to a gold standard at that time. Thus the only way in which the U.S. government could rapidly increase its money supply to finance its military without shattering the gold standard (as Nixon did in 1970) was to find a way to significantly (and quickly) increase its gold reserves.

    Confiscating the gold of its own citizens was clearly the easiest way to accomplish this. A very nice article on this period by Bullion Vault points out another interesting aspect to this episode. Immediately after confiscation, the U.S. government “revalued” gold against the dollar (i.e. it devalued the dollar) to $35/ounce – netting the U.S. government an immediate 50% profit on the gold it had taken from its citizens. But that was literally only half the plan.

    Despite the fact that the U.S. had changed its own gold exchange rate versus the dollar, the U.S.’s European allies did not change their own exchange rate between gold and the dollar – producing one of the largest arbitrage events in market history. Traders could buy gold in Europe at $20.67/ounce and then immediately sell that gold to the U.S. government at $35/ounce.

    This did more than merely make a lot of European gold traders very rich. It directly and obviously resulted in a vast amount of total, global bullion stockpiles flowing into the U.S. – as the arbitrage opportunity functioned like a “vacuum cleaner” for the global gold supply.

    While we can question the course of action for our warmonger governments during this tragic era of Western history, there can be no doubt that the action of the Roosevelt government in confiscating the gold of its citizens was based upon bona fide economic, military, and political considerations. It is equally obvious that no such motivations exist today.

    Certainly the U.S. is experiencing severe economic problems, indeed its economy is hopelessly insolvent – with the key word here being “hopeless”. Some readers have feared that gold confiscation would be seen by the U.S. government as a means to “stop the bleeding” of the U.S. economy. Such fears are misguided.

    With the U.S. federal government having $14 trillion in current debt, plus another $70 trillion in “unfunded liabilities” (which now must be funded), the $100’s of billions it could net by making another clean-sweep of its domestic gold holdings are totally irrelevant in economic terms. Thus, if the U.S. government were still to engage in gold confiscation, it would be nothing less than a blatant act of theft by the U.S. government.

    Even here, however, motivation is entirely lacking. For those worried about the U.S. government engaging in blatant stealing from its citizens (apart from the money-printing Ponzi-schemes of its bankers), the assets they should be worrying about are the $trillions in paper assets, conveniently located in accounts (operated by bankers) which could be confiscated in a instant merely by pointing-and-clicking. Indeed, there have been a rash of stories (all within recent weeks) of governments all over the world confiscating (paper) pension assets.

    In contrast, gold confiscation is a ridiculously cumbersome exercise, where the costs to administer the scheme almost outweigh any benefits by themselves. As a final footnote on this issue, Wikipedia debunked a popular internet myth concerning U.S. gold confiscation in the 1930’s: that safety deposit boxes were “seized and searched for gold” as part of that Executive Order.

    In fact, Wikipedia observed that such a directive never existed, and that private safety deposit boxes were never subjected to any searches based upon this administrative action. The only way in which someone could have their gold seized from their safety deposit box was if the government had a lawful reason to search the box – connected with a separate/different criminal violation.

    This reinforces what I have said repeatedly to bullion-holders regarding the issue of “storage”. A safety deposit box is in the “custody” of the bank, but (legally) the contents of those boxes always remain in our own “custody”. This is wholly different from either allocated or unallocated bullion accounts where the bullion itself is always legally in the “custody” of the bank administering the account. Thus, if “gold confiscation” were to take place in the U.S. (or anywhere else), any/every ounce contained in these accounts would immediately be seized, while those with bullion in safety deposit boxes would not necessarily be affected.

    For reasons listed above, however, I now view the issue of “gold confiscation” as a moot point. What surprises me, and what I intend to address in the balance of this commentary is that the issue of silver confiscation does not seem to have even been raised by any other commentator, let alone examined in a serious manner.

    In many of my own commentaries, I have gone into detail on the numerous (and ever-increasing) uses of silver in myriad industrial applications. Not only are many of these products of great importance to both consumer and commercial markets, but because of silver’s superb (and unique) chemical/metallurgical properties, in many of these applications there are either only inferior “substitutes” available, or no substitutes at all.

    Compounding the importance of silver in our modern economy is the fact that (as has frequently been reported) both global inventories and stockpiles of silver are nearly totally exhausted. Thus, we have in the silver market something which is entirely absent in the gold market: a legitimate motive for confiscating silver.

    Undoubtedly, silver-holders would be furious should the U.S. government (or any other) seek to engage in silver confiscation (almost certainly at only a fraction of silver’s real “fair market value”). There may even be riots in the streets. But unrest would be short-lived, because with a plausible (and even somewhat reasonable) pretext for confiscation, public opposition would quickly wane.

    In this respect, we must look at the now-famous internet “campaign” by Max Keiser and friends/allies to “take down JP Morgan” as a two-edged sword. I would (will) undoubtedly be one of those cheering the loudest on the day that this odious Oligarch is forced into bankruptcy. However, a blatant and direct “threat” to bring down arguably the single most-important financial institution in the entire U.S. economy may be viewed by the U.S. government as both “an economic threat” and as a “threat to national security”.

    We need only look to Afghanistan and Iraq for examples of the extremes to which the U.S. government will go under the pretext of “national security”. Compared to its global military rampage, confiscating any/all of the silver it could lay it hands on would be nothing more than a minor “footnote” to current events.

    In this respect, Bullion Bulls Canada has not joined the growing internet clamor to “take down JP Morgan”. We will certainly monitor this important grassroots movement, but our own policy is not to engage in active promotion of this campaign. To those parties who are actively crusading on this issue, I would hope that they would take the time to seriously evaluate the consequences of their actions.

    “Taking down” one of the most notorious banking oligarchies in the history of humanity may (is?) a noble goal. However, as individuals laughingly parrot the phrase “let’s take down JP Morgan”, it’s important that people realize that this is not some “internet browser game” but real life, with real consequences.

    Despite being an ardent silver-bull myself, I always caution readers to maintain “balance” in their bullion holdings. Indeed, I have devoted a previous commentary to a conservative (but simple) strategy for investors to use in allocating their dollars between gold and silver.

    The reason why I have warned investors not to go “all in” in silver is because it was always possible to envision scenarios where silver’s seemingly much brighter future may not play-out as silver investors currently envision. Sadly, current circumstances have now created such a plausible scenario where it is silver confiscation, not “gold confiscation” which should be an issue pondered by all precious metals investors.

    http://www.bullionbullscanada.com/in...=42:rokstories

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by MKS View Post
    ...Thus, if the U.S. government were still to engage in gold confiscation, it would be nothing less than a blatant act of theft by the U.S. government...
    Our government is growing more and more complacent with outright theft with every passing day. Take wealth redistribution for example. Or "spreading the wealth" as our communist in chief likes to call it. When you take from someone that which they have legally earned and give it to someone who has not earned it that, my friend, is theft. I don't care how you window dress it by talking about "fairness", it is out and out theft. And it is done to buy votes.
    Ineptocracy (in-ept-o-cra-cy)a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by CiscoKid View Post
    Our government is growing more and more complacent with outright theft with every passing day. Take wealth redistribution for example. Or "spreading the wealth" as our communist in chief likes to call it. When you take from someone that which they have legally earned and give it to someone who has not earned it that, my friend, is theft. I don't care how you window dress it by talking about "fairness", it is out and out theft. And it is done to buy votes.


    My very thoughts, as I was reading the article. The US governemnt engaging in theft!? So, what's new and surprising about that?
    "Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?" -Gimli
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    IMHO TPTB will not confiscate gold or silver from private individuals. There just isn't that much held in private hands to even make a tiny dent in the Global Financial Bubble. it just won't be worth their time and effort.

    IMHO what they will likely do is nationalize the GLD and SLV ETFs. TPTB allowed these ETFs to come into existence specifically for that purpose.

    IMHO if you must own paper gold or silver,, such as within an IRA or 401K, it would be 1000% more desirable to hold it with the smaller but "independent" Canadian or Swiss metals ETFs.

    And gold is just a "barbarous relic" anyway, right
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by phideaux View Post
    IMHO TPTB will not confiscate gold or silver from private individuals. There just isn't that much held in private hands to even make a tiny dent in the Global Financial Bubble. it just won't be worth their time and effort.

    IMHO what they will likely do is nationalize the GLD and SLV ETFs. TPTB allowed these ETFs to come into existence specifically for that purpose.

    IMHO if you must own paper gold or silver,, such as within an IRA or 401K, it would be 1000% more desirable to hold it with the smaller but "independent" Canadian or Swiss metals ETFs.

    And gold is just a "barbarous relic" anyway, right
    phideaux, it's not that gold and silver are such a small part of financial assets that they won't make a dent in the financial bubble, but how important silver is to our way of life. It's vital to our industrial and military complex and I think they will make sure the get it any way they can.

    From the article:
    In many of my own commentaries, I have gone into detail on the numerous (and ever-increasing) uses of silver in myriad industrial applications. Not only are many of these products of great importance to both consumer and commercial markets, but because of silver’s superb (and unique) chemical/metallurgical properties, in many of these applications there are either only inferior “substitutes” available, or no substitutes at all.

    Compounding the importance of silver in our modern economy is the fact that (as has frequently been reported) both global inventories and stockpiles of silver are nearly totally exhausted. Thus, we have in the silver market something which is entirely absent in the gold market: a legitimate motive for confiscating silver.

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    People in the old days did not trust paper at all. The US has a history of using paper since the first revolution then the second of devaluing the currency. Today people love the green paper. To confiscate gold or silver all they need to do is print up lots of green paper drive up the price of metals and put out Cash for gold and silver signs. People that are in debt up to thier eyeballs, laid off, no pension will sell, find scrap or steal everything they can get thier hands on to get that green paper. That is confiscation the easy way.
    The Golden rule: Those that own the gold make the rules.

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    MKS, I agree, silver is an irreplaceable essential industrial metal. The same cannot be said of gold.

    SLV (allegedly) holds something like 400 million ounces. TPTB consider SLV to be America's strategic reserve of silver. They don't need to own it, they can just nationalize it when needed by printing a relatively few FRNs to buy it all. $15 or $20 billion in FRNs isn't even a rounding error in the U.S> Federal budget.

    Even if TPTB steal those 400 million ounces, that's still not a great amount of silver, only about 6 months of annual global production.

    And I don' t think that even TPTB are stupid enough to confiscate Silver Eagles, Morgans, etc, in order to melt them down to go into RFID chips or iPads or solar panels or whatever.
    Last edited by phideaux; 01-30-2011 at 11:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by MKS View Post
    ... it's not that gold and silver are such a small part of financial assets that they won't make a dent in the financial bubble, but how important silver is to our way of life. It's vital to our industrial and military complex and I think they will make sure the get it any way they can....

    ...a legitimate motive for confiscating silver.

    The day silver hits $500/oz they can have all I own. I will even deliver it with a smile.
    Ineptocracy (in-ept-o-cra-cy)a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    If it gets to the point where they come for your silver the time will have come to give them lead.....
    It's better to burn out than fade away...........

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    well if they want my pm's to give to the poor SOB's that cant save a dime and eat steak and sell their food stamps for crack they can have it! if i can just remember where i put.

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by phideaux View Post
    IMHO what they will likely do is nationalize the GLD and SLV ETFs. TPTB allowed these ETFs to come into existence specifically for that purpose.
    Emphasis mine.

    Is this just speculation or do you have some evidence or at least some substantially plausible reasoning to support that?

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    I do not think TPTB will simply take silver and leave gold to be held privately. That is not how the class warfare game works. They will take gold, silver, and any other form of wealth they want from all but their closest of elite friends. They will take it at threat of imprisonment and if you resist ... death. AND, your neighbor will help them. It will be the patriotic thing for them to do.

    If FIAT begins to fail, they must stop all other means of trade to support FIAT.

    I appreciate the article, but "they" do not care about blood in the streets as long is it the right person's blood. All you will be able to do is hide and wait. None will stand with you if they know you own silver or gold. All will turn you in to TPTB. They will simply call the toll-free hotline to collect their reward for turning you in. It will be completely rational as well since if they turn you in they can afford to feed their kids for another week or month, right?

    PM's are of very little use during a revolution except to be used to leave the area. PM's are for rebuilding once calm and honest reason have been restored and the cycle begins anew.

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    I think the prospects of gold and silver being confiscated should be in mind when buying and storing, but I would argue the biggest asset liability that many people have for confiscation would be 401k and IRA accounts.

    Interesting note on this my dad who has a Well Farg IRA acct received a nice letter in the mail a few weeks ago. Apparently Well Farg is moving IRA accounts from the bank trust accounts into the bank investment management area. Needless to say dad is pulling it.

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Some people believe they'll confiscate gold only. Some believe they'll confiscate silver only. Some people believe they'll confiscate gold and silver. I've never seen people commenting on their thoughts of platinum or palladium confiscation. Do most of you believe that they are the least likely to be confiscated?

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by silverblood View Post
    Emphasis mine.

    Is this just speculation or do you have some evidence or at least some substantially plausible reasoning to support that?
    No, as I said, JMHO...

    At the time GLD was created, most of the self-anointed "experts" said no way would the CFTC allow it. TPTB really had every excuse to say No but they said Yes. GLD really opened the floodgates for all kinds of commodity-backed ETFs.

    I'm just reading between the lines.
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by mnmom View Post
    I think the prospects of gold and silver being confiscated should be in mind when buying and storing,

    but I would argue the biggest asset liability that many people have for confiscation would be 401k and IRA accounts.

    Interesting note on this my dad who has a Well Farg IRA acct received a nice letter in the mail a few weeks ago. Apparently Well Farg is moving IRA accounts from the bank trust accounts into the bank investment management area. Needless to say dad is pulling it.
    Ding Ding Ding!!!!!!!! We Have a Winnah!!!!! Nice to see some folks are paying attention.~~Carry On
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    It's paranoia... but as they say, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

    Confiscation will not be necessary. Too controversial and likely to spark a rebellion, however small. Nope, all they need do is install an asset tax. PM's would be incidental to taxing other assets. They can raise all the support they need to make such a move seem normal and acceptable. They do so already by promising entitlements and setting it up so the majority pay nothing in.

    Where PM's might be in for different treatment in this sort of scenario would be to make them non-deductible... like, your home, auto and retirement savings are deductible if under a certain threshold, but other hard assets are not. And it's easy for them to specify PM's, guns, and other items valued by those of average means who do not toe the liberal line. Not gonna' take them away. We're gonna tax them away. And it gives them a very powerful enforcement tool. That ol' boating accident meme becomes a jailable offense if you get caught "cheating" on your taxes.
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    The power to tax is the power to destroy. Cant remember the person that said that.

    Palladium and plat would likely be confiscated in a strategic metal scenario. Needed for war or security.
    The Golden rule: Those that own the gold make the rules.

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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    It's much easier to past a law that says:
    By {pick a date} all monies invested in a 401K, 403k, 529, Ira, and all pension plans must at minimum, be 25% invested in US government "securities". .

    Then a year later they can increase it to 50%, then 75%. . .

    Since most people can't access the funds in those accounts, they would be able to rob you blind while insisting that you hold the door open for them as they leave. . with your cash in hand.
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by bcvojak View Post
    It's much easier to past a law that says:
    By {pick a date} all monies invested in a 401K, 403k, 529, Ira, and all pension plans must at minimum, be 25% invested in US government "securities". .

    Then a year later they can increase it to 50%, then 75%. . .

    Since most people can't access the funds in those accounts, they would be able to rob you blind while insisting that you hold the door open for them as they leave. . with your cash in hand.
    You have a way with words BC, just toss in a 'for your own good', or a 'to protect you from greedy wall street'.
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Never underestimate the tyrannical potential of a financially strapped waning empire.

    I don't think the odds are high of such a scenario playing out, but if things get really desperate, you never know.

  31. Post #22

    #22
    I'd rather be Ragnarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Imho, confiscation is one of those things which while it may or may not be probable, like PMs it must always be tucked away itself into a secure place (corner of one's mind) and NEVER forgotten.

    I'm of the mind they'd give the reason as a "national security" issue or some other convenient lie. Or tax the crap out of it as mentioned above and thus make the confisca- no, the theft "invisible".

    "So long back to shore... and no (more) PMs in my pocket..."

    R.
    "Walk the gold trails of my good friend, do I. On my feet are "strong sole" of thick leather, purchased with much knowledge of physical gold. These shoes not go bare before our journey is done. On trail I see your "thin sole" gold investments cast aside and scavenged by beasts." - ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) (04/14/01; 18:08:54MT - #: 51887)

    Personal best on calm water: SAE - 32 skips. GAE - 21 skips.

  32. Post #23

    #23
    Found a gold nugget Metal Miner
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    Default Re: Bullion Confiscation: Paranoia, or Justified Fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by phideaux View Post
    IMHO TPTB will not confiscate gold or silver from private individuals. There just isn't that much held in private hands to even make a tiny dent in the Global Financial Bubble. it just won't be worth their time and effort.

    IMHO what they will likely do is nationalize the GLD and SLV ETFs. TPTB allowed these ETFs to come into existence specifically for that purpose.

    IMHO if you must own paper gold or silver,, such as within an IRA or 401K, it would be 1000% more desirable to hold it with the smaller but "independent" Canadian or Swiss metals ETFs.

    And gold is just a "barbarous relic" anyway, right
    Or...Those Canadian metal slabs!


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