Explain how you can buy PM's without being reported

[Silver Sahara]

I know I've seen somewhere that explained how much you can buy and with whatever amount of money and exactly which coins you can or can't buy without being reported for 1099.

For example, if I buy 50 coins worth of silver buffalo's online with a money order, will it be reported? What about with a personal check? What about 500 coins? What if they were silver Austrian Philharmonics?

You get the picture. Can someone point me in the right direction? A link would be great.

[Gcubed]

Only CASH purchases over $10,000 are reported. Sales are another story.

[Irons]

Go to a coin show, walk around with a pocket full of frn's and buy stuff from everybody.

Selling? Go to a coin show, walk around with a pocket full of PM's and sell stuff to everybody~~

[ccjoe]

If does NOT matter what is reported.
My accountant said if you don't report every sale (sold) you will be in handcuffs.
If you get audited how can you explain the checks you deposited in the bank from Hannes, Apmex, Gainesville, etc. You can NOT.
Now if you get cash..........................

[ccjoe]

Only CASH purchases over $10,000 are reported. Sales are another story.

At the Bay State Coin Show, biggest on the east coast, Bob Higgins http://www.plaxo.com/directory/profi...4e/Bob/Higgins said everyone was buying with checks or they would be in big trouble. Now if you saw irons or someone with FRN'S, that's a whole new and better ballgame to sell to.

[Eat Beef]

Once again clam chowder joe misses the point.

HE'S ASKING ABOUT PURCHASES, IE, BUYING!!

All my local dealers know me as Mr. Shackelford. No joke.

[Irons]

No effing way I would take a check for PM's, and I have my own currency pen to check bills, but hell I'm just a buffoon.

[Gcubed]

At the Bay State Coin Show, biggest on the east coast, Bob Higgins http://www.plaxo.com/directory/profi...4e/Bob/Higgins said everyone was buying with checks or they would be in big trouble. Now if you saw irons or someone with FRN'S, that's a whole new and better ballgame to sell to.

Do they let you out of the "Gated Community" to attend coin shows?

[MISRy]

Go to a coin show, walk around with a pocket full of frn's and buy stuff from everybody. ...

I *knew* the person I got the sovereign off of this weekend looked familiar! Or were you the guy I got the double eagle from? I was the guy that traded a bunch of silver... Doh! Nevermind, alot of us were doing that.

[Gcubed]

I *knew* the person I got the sovereign off of this weekend looked familiar! Or were you the guy I got the double eagle from? I was the guy that traded a bunch of silver... Doh! Nevermind, alot of us were doing that.

Iron's MOTHER couldn't get a Sovereign off of him!!!

[Irons]

I *knew* the person I got the sovereign off of this weekend looked familiar! Or were you the guy I got the double eagle from? I was the guy that traded a bunch of silver... Doh! Nevermind, alot of us were doing that.

No way you got a sov from me smooth, my wife can't even do that. ~

I am loving the coin shows now that I have been to a couple, that is the way to buy.

[Irons]

Iron's MOTHER couldn't get a Sovereign off of him!!!

Great minds and all and all!~

[ccjoe]

No effing way I would take a check for PM's, and I have my own currency pen to check bills, but hell I'm just a buffoon.

Hannes, and ALL the biggest coin dealers in the world will NOT pay you in cash. Can't you read Einstein?
Call up Hannes or anyone except your local yokels.
You don't have to live in a gated community to have a brain.
Again of course you need nothing to buy> irs compliance> but to sell it's gotta be from an idiot like irons eb, or cube head if you want cash.

[budfox]

Hannes, and ALL the biggest coin dealers in the world will NOT pay you in cash. Can't you read Einstein?
Call up Hannes or anyone except your local yokels.
You don't have to live in a gated community to have a brain.
Again of course you need nothing to buy> irs compliance> but to sell it's gotta be from an idiot like irons eb, or cube head if you want cash.

So has Irons moved from being a mere buffoon to the village idiot and buffoon?

[lllzhang]

what if I trade pm for pm and pay the price difference with a check?

[Irons]

So has Irons moved from being a mere buffoon to the village idiot and buffoon?

Movin' on up Baybee!!

[Gcubed]

what if I trade pm for pm and pay the price difference with a check?

Is the check good?

[Gcubed]

Movin' on up Baybee!!

Now I'm jealous!!

[Irons]

Hannes, and ALL the biggest coin dealers in the world will NOT pay you in cash. Can't you read Einstein?
Call up Hannes or anyone except your local yokels.
You don't have to live in a gated community to have a brain.
Again of course you need nothing to buy> irs compliance> but to sell it's gotta be from an idiot like irons eb, or cube head if you want cash.

Are you off your meds again dude? You were almost rational for a week or so there and now you seem to be back to lashing out total batsh!tness.

The wind of oblivion whistles through your ears, and sounds like a bad harmonica.

[Irons]

what if I trade pm for pm and pay the price difference with a check?

If you are trading with a dealer that is fine, although most dealers will want to know you for a while before they will accept a check.

I'm not going to ask how much frn's you are looking to spend, but cash is almost always the best for a few thousand dollar purchase.

Buy a bit at a time spread out among sellers and get your best price, this ain't a race.

[nergal]

I usually buy through CL and sell through CL. No 1099, but a .357 is suggested . . . .

[Silver Sahara]

Wow, 19 replies and I'm not sure I have an answer. I got this from another site and I don't know how reliable the information is: http://www.certifiedmint.com/myths_lies.htm

Reportable Purchases
Often, promoters will claim that the coins they offer are not subject to "reporting." Such statements imply the government requires gold transactions be reported. However, no government regulations require the reporting of the purchases of any precious metals, per se. If payment is made by cash greater than $10,000, however, it becomes a "cash reporting transaction." It is not the gold that the government wants reported but the cash. Such reporting applies to all business transactions involving more than $10,000 cash.
Regarding cash transactions, Official General Instructions for IRS Form 8300 read: "Who Must File. - Each person engaged in a trade or business who, during that trade or business, receives more than $10,000 in cash in one transaction or two or more related transactions must file Form 8300. Any transactions conducted between a payer (or its agent) and the recipient in a 24-hour period are related transactions.
This regulation applies to cash - greenbacks, paper money. It does not apply to personal checks, wire transfers, or money market withdrawals. When cashier's checks or money orders are involved, cash reporting may be triggered.
Form 8300's General Instructions define as cash "a cashier's check, bank draft, traveler's check, or money order having a face amount of not more than $10,000." Using a cashier's check less than $10,000 would be a "cash transaction," but it would not be reportable because it is less than $10,000. However, two cashier's checks, each less than $10,000 but totaling more than $10,000 for a single purchase, would be considered cash and subject to reporting.
Further clarification: If an investor makes a $15,000 investment in gold and pays with a single $15,000 cashier's check, it is not reportable. If, however, he pays with two or more cashier's checks each less than $10,000, the dealer would be obligated to report.
Cash reporting requirements were not written specifically for the precious metals industry but for all businesses. The purchase of a car, boat, or jewelry, and payment with two cashier's checks, each less than $10,000 but totaling more than $10,000, would be a reportable transaction.
Another example: an investor agrees to buy precious metals totaling more than $10,000, again say $15,000, and wants to make payments with money from two accounts. If the investor withdraws $8,000 from the first account and gets a cashier's check, and then gets another cashier's check for $7,000 from the second account, the transaction becomes reportable. A purchase of $30,000 and payment with two $15,000 cashier's checks would not be a reportable transaction. The significant amount is $10,000.
Personal checks or checks drawn on the payer's own account are not considered cash. Form 8300's General Instructions read: "Cash does not included a check drawn on the payer's own account, such as a personal check, regardless of the amount."

So it appears that any cash transactions less than $10k won't be reportable. I guess you could spend $7k at one dealer and $8k at another dealer and neither would be reportable because they are separate entities.

[budfox]

If you make a profit on the purchase and sale of precious metals the government wants to share in your happiness, losses not so much.

[Silver Sahara]

If you make a profit on the purchase and sale of precious metals the government wants to share in your happiness, losses not so much.

The article I cited above says that silver ASEs are not reportable in any quantity. Are silver Buffalos not reportable? It seemed I saw a list on here before as to what is reportable and not reportable in another post but I can't find it. Anyone have a link?

[tanner]

Does anyone know anyone who has been popped for not reporting metal sales/purchases? kinda seems like unicorns and mermaids if you ask me....

[lhslancers3270]

All profits are reportable. Some dealers will not send back up info to unk but it is mighty hard to explain a large check or wire going in if you get called on it. Peanuts I wouldn't worry larger trades you gotta be kidding.

[budfox]

The article I cited above says that silver ASEs are not reportable in any quantity. Are silver Buffalos not reportable? It seemed I saw a list on here before as to what is reportable and not reportable in another post but I can't find it. Anyone have a link?

I said the above in jest. The only reportable sales currently are more than 24 Krugs however if you make a profit from the sale of your metals it is up to you to report it. If you don't and they catch you you'll be on the pain train...

[Texan]

Some suggestions from CNI's website. http://www.golddealer.com/ On the left hand side choose #14 under investment guides:

List of Reportable Bullion Transactions
The majority of bullion and rare coin transactions are not reportable to Uncle Sam. For those transactions which are reportable the rules can be confusing because there are also minimum size requirements so checking with your tax consultant before taking action is a good idea. If the few government reporting requirements bother you, it is easy to do your homework and avoid products which fall into the reporting area. There are many low premium bullion bars & coins that have no reporting requirement and move directly with the spot market. If you're an advocate of the secrecy gurus, and can visit us in person, take advantage of "no name" invoices that are legal and make up a great number of our daily transactions.

The following is what The Industry Council For Tangible Assets has to offer about what the I.R.S. wants in the way of paper work. They are describing the paper work provided by bullion dealers which relate to what you purchase or sell. These rules are taken from the ICTA newsletter Washington Wire dated December, 2004.

First: You can place any size order and pay with a check. No one cares, not even the government. The only time they want to hear from us is if you invest more than $10,000 in cash. Then you must fill out I.R.S. Form 8300. There is nothing wrong with large cash transactions, but the government wants to know about them. And, by the way, you can't spend $5000 today and $6000 tomorrow, for Uncle Sam does not like to be fooled.

Second: There are rules which apply only to bullion and only when you sell. They have nothing to do with your purchases, and do not apply to rare coins. Kilo bars are 32.15 troy ounces of gold and are subject to reporting. We are also required to report any gold bar sale totalling 32.15 ounces are more. Concerning 1 troy oz. gold coin transactions: If you sell 25 coins or more of the Krugerrand, Maple Leaf or Mexican Gold Onza we are required to report them on I.R.S. Form 1099B. Such reporting is not required on transactions involving the U.S. Gold Eagle the Australian Kangaroo or the Austrian Philharmonic. There is also no reporting on any small gold bullion coins.

Third: We are required to report $1000 face 90% silver bags and 1000 ounce silver bar transactions only when you sell to us. We are not asked to report the sale of 40% bags or less than $1000 face in 90% silver coin. The 10 and 1 ounce silver bar is exempt as long as the sale does not exceed 1000 ounces.

Fourth: Platinum or palladium bars in quantities of 25 ounces or more are reportable. Platinum bullion coins like the Canadian Maple Leaf, the U.S. platinum Eagle, or the Australian Koala are exempt. Palladium bullion coins like the Russian Ballerina are exempt. If these rules seem arbitrary we don't blame you. We believe our government based their decisions on what was traded on the nation's commodity exchanges and had little to do with what was happening in coin stores across America.

[lhslancers3270]

I said the above in jest. The only reportable sales currently are more than 24 Krugs however if you make a profit from the sale of your metals it is up to you to report it. If you don't and they catch you you'll be on the pain train...

Maple Leafs get ya a 1099 from the Dwarf from Inglewood. 25 and up.

[Silver Sahara]

Maybe I shouldn't ask this in an open forum, but what's the end game for someone who has a few thousand ounces of silver years down the road and wants to start using it for retirement or make large purchases like a house?

I'm new to this obviously and I want to protect my wealth. At the same time I'm concerned by double taxation. I just don't know anyone locally who will 'spill the beans' as it were.

Maybe some of you guys in the know can send me a private message and tell me more. Thanks for all the input from you guys and the knowledge I have gained from this site.

[lhslancers3270]

Plan on paying capital gains tax based on your income when you sell. If you have outsized gains it might be prudent to take them over the course of a few years.

[Not Sure]

I know I've seen somewhere that explained how much you can buy and with whatever amount of money and exactly which coins you can or can't buy without being reported for 1099.

For example, if I buy 50 coins worth of silver buffalo's online with a money order, will it be reported? What about with a personal check? What about 500 coins? What if they were silver Austrian Philharmonics?

You get the picture. Can someone point me in the right direction? A link would be great.

Only cash purchases over $10,000 and/or "are suspicious" require paperwork ("Currency Transaction Report" and/or "Suspicious Activity Report"). Using a check or money order to purchase does NOT require additional reporting, regardless of amount, since it assumed those instruments are traceable back to you (you cannot buy money orders with cash without succumbing to these same "reporting" rules).

Familiarize yourself with the Federal regime's "structuring laws" if you decide to make multiple purchases under $10,000. DO NOT ask any bank or dealer about such rules, because a "Suspicious Activity Report" is supposed to be filed just for your asking. For example, buying $9500 worth of stuff three days a week from the same dealer is a big no-no.

"Structuring": http://www.fincen.gov/fincenruling2005-6.pdf

Sales are a much different story.

EDIT: Silver Sahara found the parallel IRS regulations...

[WhyKnow]

Silver Sahara, any purchase where the seller writes a receipt with YOUR name is reportable. Any time you use a check or cc, it is trackable. The ONLY time something is not reportable is when no one knows you.
As far as selling for profit, if you suddenly have some big ticket items in your name, like cars, motorcycles, houses or airplanes; the IRS can track you down. They don't worry too much about small fry, but when they start to lose out on tens of thousands of dollars, it is worth their time to track you down.
Someone might take out cash every month from their bank account for years and then claim the money they spent was from all that cash they took out. Anytime you spend over 10k in cash, the IRS is supposed to hear about it.
I know of no way to avoid taxes for large purchases like a house or property, but whose to say you weren't eating top ramen for the past fifteen years and just saving that cash you were taking out?
Who would ever want to avoid taxes anyway? It's your duty as a good citizen/worker.

[Nickelless]

Go to a coin show, walk around with a pocket full of frn's and buy stuff from everybody.

Selling? Go to a coin show, walk around with a pocket full of PM's and sell stuff to everybody~~

Would this technically be considered structuring, or not so much since it would involve different individual sellers? Not that I have the problem of having more than $10,000 cash at the moment anyway.

Have any of you ever gone to a coin show and spent more than $10K in cash this way?

[Not Sure]

Would this technically be considered structuring, or not so much since it would involve different individual sellers? Not that I have the problem of having more than $10,000 cash at the moment anyway.

Have any of you ever gone to a coin show and spent more than $10K in cash this way?

$9999.99 to separate dealers is NOT structuring per the United States Code. Two transactions to the same dealer for $5500.00 would be.

[Irons]

Maybe I shouldn't ask this in an open forum, but what's the end game for someone who has a few thousand ounces of silver years down the road and wants to start using it for retirement or make large purchases like a house?

I'm new to this obviously and I want to protect my wealth. At the same time I'm concerned by double taxation. I just don't know anyone locally who will 'spill the beans' as it were.

Maybe some of you guys in the know can send me a private message and tell me more. Thanks for all the input from you guys and the knowledge I have gained from this site.

Sell a few at a time for cash and you will be fine. Sell a huge amount to make a large purchase be prepared to pay any and all taxes they can think up plus probably a few more.

If you all of a sudden have a suitcase full of cash and no paper trail to show where it came from you will be treated like a drug dealer or a terrorist.

[stAGgering]

CAUTION: Do not remotely assume, any law in regards to money, will be the same "years down the road."
Possession of real money now, for future financial security, should outweigh all concerns.
Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
Why else would one NOT be IRA, 410k, USD investor. All controlled and isolated, away from technical "owner."
buY bUY BUY.

Maybe I shouldn't ask this in an open forum, but what's the end game for someone who has a few thousand ounces of silver years down the road and wants to start using it for retirement or make large purchases like a house?

I'm new to this obviously and I want to protect my wealth. At the same time I'm concerned by double taxation. I just don't know anyone locally who will 'spill the beans' as it were.

Maybe some of you guys in the know can send me a private message and tell me more. Thanks for all the input from you guys and the knowledge I have gained from this site.

[Irons]

Would this technically be considered structuring, or not so much since it would involve different individual sellers? Not that I have the problem of having more than $10,000 cash at the moment anyway.

Have any of you ever gone to a coin show and spent more than $10K in cash this way?

Nope, I call it Shopping.~

[wjv]

All my local dealers know me as Mr. Shackelford. No joke.

All my receipts are made out to Mr. Cash. . .
Of course, none of them are for over $10K.

Walk into store
Lay your money down
Pick up PMs
Walk out of store

Pretty darn easy.

When your selling, sell for cash.
Personally, I don't plan on selling. . .ever. . . unless the economy has crashed to the point of no-return. . .