When Will Local Coin Shops Regularly Start Buying/Selling Copper Penny Rolls?

[SevenEyedJeff]

Does anyone ever think copper pennies will be sold at local coin shops, like junk silver is today? If so, at what point do you think it becomes popular?

I personally think they are too bulky. Even silver is worth about 60 times more than the same weight of copper.

[Gcubed]

It has been going on for quite a while. $50 sacks of wheat pennies have been marketed for years and years. The spreads are wide due to shipping costs.

[GoldWampum]

The sales will increase with the demand, so you'll see it gain popularity the whole way up. It's one of the best ways out there to buy copper. I don't see a magic number in that regard.

[highroller4321]

Everyday their are more and more dealers who do this! APMEX was even selling copper before they changed their site. I think they are working on expanding their copper, but haven't made up their mind yet on how.

I know of some local dealers that actively deal in copper. If there is money to be made in coins dealers will get involved.

[lhslancers3270]

Silver gives me a hernia I couldn't imagine dragging copper around.

[GoldWampum]

Yeah it ain't like you keep a couple hundred in copper in the wallet. Not even at the price they want for copper bars.

[Eat Beef]

So will copper be as big a dog as silver?

[fasTT]

One of my locals sells $50 FV bags for $95 all day long.

Cash and carry only.

The carry is the hard part.

[GoldWampum]

So will copper be as big a dog as silver?

We're talking parity here Beef. There are no losers... everybody gets a trophy. Even this guy

[Eat Beef]

The carry is the hard part.

Good one car! Love the av, too!


Hey Wampum! You should see the looks on the soccer mom's faces when I get through with my rant about life being all about winning and losing at the children's sport's association meetings. (They still give "participant awards".)

[GoldWampum]

I hear ya Beef, doze women iz crazay. Here's their trophy .

[CopperSilverGold]

I like copper, but voted that it wont happen until copper reaches 6 to 9x face. It's just not practical right now for dealers to do it with the weight and bulk of copper cents. I've heard plenty of dealers complain when they have too much silver about how much weight and room it can take up so do the math and extrapolate that out for copper cents. I've asked dealers about this casually and they pretty much laughed in my face. I asked them if they could get them at face and sell them at 1.5x to 1.8x face if they would do it and got the old rolling of the eyes. I can't blame them really because who goes into coin shops asking for bulk copper bullion? For them to sell them online I still get the feeling it's not worth the hassle for them to do it either due to the volume required to make it worth their time.

[CopperSilverGold]

Follow-up: so I asked three different dealers here in the area while making my rounds to the different coin shops in the area. Here are some the comments I got:

#1 (laughing) "Uh I dont think so". This guy is older (roughly mid 60's) so he was alive when they made the composition change back in 1965 for silver coinage to clad. I am paraphrasing here because I don't remember his exact words but he said "people have always desired silver and gold throughouot history, especially gold. I don't remember hearing of nations going to war over copper or there ever being a Fort Knox for copper." I didnt push any further because he seemed to be getting a bit on the snotty side and his point was made.
#2 "It's not for me." I asked him for more info and he said "they take up too much room, they way too much, and people simply aren't beating down my door asking for bags of copper pennies." I asked him if he thought they would someday trade like junk silver is day and his reply was "it will be a cold day in hell before this ever happens"
#3 "I dont think it will ever become mainstream. I know where our economy is going and I get the value of moving paper money into government issued metals but I dont foresee a day where people are beating down my doors to acquire $25 face bags of coppers. Not now, not five years from now, and probably never"

Pretty interesting to see them react this way and be so adamant about their opinions. They could be wrong down the road, but will it be in any of our lifetimes? Who knows, but the more I think about and each time I look at my meager copper holdings, I often wonder if the time spent to sort through countless boxes could have been used for something more productive. I hate to be Johnny Raincloud, but I'm starting to think more in line with the dealers I talked to.

[Mr. Shiny]

First things first, if you can drive down an alleyway and pick Cu from the trash, you are still a long, long ways off from copper even being considered of value.
And the people who buy those nice "investment quality" copper coins, bars, ingots. SUCKER!!

[fasTT]

I sell $50 face value bags of mixed Canadian and US copper for $75 locally.

Sold $400 face today.

[CopperSilverGold]

I sell $50 face value bags of mixed Canadian and US copper for $75 locally.

Sold $400 face today.

So is $25 gross profit per $50 bag pretty standard? It seems like after you take out your expenses for acquiring, sorting, unloading the unwanted non-copper cents, packaging, and delivering the copper cent bags that there wouldnt be much of a net profit. Correct me if I am wrong, but on the surface the profit percent looks nice, but I cant imagine that the net profit per bag is anything special. Seems like one would have to move alot of these and that might be difficult with it being such a niche market right now.

[fasTT]

I am in a privileged position.

My business is processing coin on an industrial scale. People pay me to take their coins.

Machine separation is just an extra step that removes more valuable coins from the less valuable ones.

[Mr. Shiny]

Do you penny people realize that while the copper content of the cent is worth ~twice it's face value, if you were able to sell them into the copper market you'll probably only realize about half of copper's spot because they are actually brass. And you take a huge hit selling contaminated copper.

[Gcubed]

Do you penny people realize that while the copper content of the cent is worth ~twice it's face value, if you were able to sell them into the copper market you'll probably only realize about half of copper's spot because they are actually brass. And you take a huge hit selling contaminated copper.

Some sucker will buy them so some entrepreneur will make a market. Witness the trading in 40% halves and War nickels.

[CopperSilverGold]

Some sucker will buy them so some entrepreneur will make a market. Witness the trading in 40% halves and War nickels.

Huge difference IMO. 40% and war nickels have the sexy "s" word - silver. And both of these are widely traded by online dealers like Apmex and Tulving (40% for sure, cant say war nickels that I know of) and 40% is traded in 3 different products on the nucleo exchange portion of Bullion Direct. A market requires both a buyer and a seller. With copper cents, there plenty of potential sellers but how many potential buyers are there? In other words is the demand side big enough to consider it to be a comparable market to 40% or war nickels?

I think a good gauge to look at is the Apmex top 40. They show both 40% and war nickels, but nothing for copper cents. Would copper cent bags make the top 40 if the market had copper cents trading at 3-5x face or one of the above categories in the poll? Maybe, but I am honestly having my doubts on this as far as a mainstream product.

So far no one has presented a compelling case to make me think it's worth the effort for an individual to take a large position in these.

[fasTT]

Exhibit A:

www.portlandmint.com

[Greenback]

I have read that about 20% of the pennies in circulation are copper, and in 1981 it was 100% copper. So I would guess that we will have the coppers with us for another 10 years in circulation. Who knows what the world will look like in 10 years, but I would guess after 10 years people might look into copper if the silver and gold prices are crazy high. Just a guess on my part!

[Gcubed]

I have read that about 20% of the pennies in circulation are copper, and in 1981 it was 100% copper. So I would guess that we will have the coppers with us for another 10 years in circulation. Who knows what the world will look like in 10 years, but I would guess after 10 years people might look into copper if the silver and gold prices are crazy high. Just a guess on my part!

1981 and prior were bronze, 95% copper, 5% zinc.

[newmisty]

The local shop in my old town would buy wheaties all day at .02 so I don't see why the 95% Cu should be much different soon.

[glockngold]

Stopped in at one of the 4 shops in the area Thursday. Mostly to chew the fat since he didn't have anything I was buying.
He says he now has customers that buy his scrap gold (instead of sending it to a refiner) and he has a guy that will buy all the copper pennies by weight. (didn't get a price on that sorry)
His comment was that "yeah, I know it's illegal to melt them down in this country, but you can be sure some containers of pennies are headed to China"

[cpthnsolo]

So far no one has presented a compelling case to make me think it's worth the effort for an individual to take a large position in these.

I've been told that in the mid 60's silver coinage didn't sell for a premium as you could still pull it out of circulation yourself. Fast forward to the late 70's and the story is entirely different. In other words by the time most people decide it's worth hoarding pennies (let's say 5 to 10x) they'll nearly be gone from circulation just like silver coins disappeared from wide circulation during the 70's.

Having said all that though I still don't believe it's worth the time and effort of picking up bank boxes and sorting. I did sort for a while, but by the time you factor in gas and time it's just not worth it IMO. As such I am now a dedicated nickel hoarder. It's much easier to simply pick up a box of nickels for $100 and put them away in the closet without having to bother sorting. They're already worth 6.2 cents each so by the time Cu pennies are worth 10 cents each nickels will be worth 25 cents.

I have read that about 20% of the pennies in circulation are copper, and in 1981 it was 100% copper. So I would guess that we will have the coppers with us for another 10 years in circulation.

It really depends on where you are located. I've sorted a number of boxes (a box contains $25 in pennies) and I averaged around 22%. Some of the guys over on realcent.com average closer to 30% so it seems some areas are better than others.

1981 and prior were bronze, 95% copper, 5% zinc.

Most 82's were bronze as well. In order to tell if an '82 is a keeper or not simply flip it into the air with your thumb. If you hear it 'sing' it's a keeper. If you don't hear anything it's a zinclon.

[Green Light]

How will the buyers verify the dates on the pennies?
By reading them? That's the problem.

I know about the ryedale machine but I doubt most coin dealers are going to spend time etc. screwing with what you claim are your "copper" pennies

[Nickelless]

Silver gives me a hernia I couldn't imagine dragging copper around.

If you have enough silver that lugging it around gives you a hernia, then you've got enough stored value to craft a solution to that "problem." I'll repeat what I've posted many times and IMO have never received a logical rebuttal to it:

http://goldismoney2.com/showthread.p...4933#post34933

Just how often do you go carrying around bags of silver?? The whole argument that "silver is too bulky" is just stupid. Are you planning to move it around like furniture on a regular basis or do you plan to use it as a store of wealth?? David Morgan shot down this ridiculous notion of silver being "too bulky," i.e., not worth the hassle:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...UPzAke0jlOs88g

Seriously, how many of us have the problem of having to carry around our PMs with us everywhere we go?

[Nickelless]

How will the buyers verify the dates on the pennies?
By reading them? That's the problem.

I know about the ryedale machine but I doubt most coin dealers are going to spend time etc. screwing with what you claim are your "copper" pennies

I bought a Ryedale a couple years ago and sorted about $6,000 worth of pennies before my job situation changed and I didn't have time to sort out coppers and return zincs to the bank. But I did sell several hundred dollars worth of coppers to one individual in a single transaction at a central meeting place, and being a dedicated sorter himself he had a digital scale in his trunk that he used to confirm that each bag had $50 face value worth of what were probably coppers (as opposed to much-lighter zincs which again would be obvious by the weight).

If it gets to the point that we're exchanging hundreds of dollars worth of coppers for merchandise, you probably won't be trading or selling the coppers to coin dealers because at that point the economy will be in shambles and gold and silver will have gone through the roof and the coin dealers will be dealing with gold and silver while others will take copper. Copper has a place, but it probably won't be with coin dealers. And the people who will be inclined to take coppers probably won't have to be convinced that you're offering them coppers because in offering to trade for them in the first place, they'll likely already be aware of the pre-'82 copper content and subsequent metal value.

[Green Light]

1981 and prior were bronze, 95% copper, 5% zinc.

You are mistaken. That's not bronze, it's brass.

[southfork]

Saw over a year ago a shop selling them for .70 a roll, my lcs gives me them for face value when he gets them, he also sells me all his nickels for face too. I save all my change nickles and pre 81 pennies, who knows they may be worth 10x in the next few years the way inflation is going.

I also have had the credit union order me a box of nickles.

[southfork]

History of compositionYears Material
1793–1857 100% copper
1857–1864 88% copper, 12% nickel (also known as NS-12)
1864–1942 1946–1962 bronze (95% copper, 5% tin and zinc)
1943 zinc-coated steel (also known as 1943 steel cent)
1944–1946 brass (95% copper, 5% zinc)
1962–1982 brass (95% copper, 5% zinc)
1982–present

[voodoo1951]

Good one car! Love the av, too!


Hey Wampum! You should see the looks on the soccer mom's faces when I get through with my rant about life being all about winning and losing at the children's sport's association meetings. (They still give "participant awards".)

Those "participant" awards are just plain stoopid... Anyone who says " winning isn't everything, it's how you play the game" is probably a loser!

[voodoo1951]

Exhibit A:

www.portlandmint.com

Exibit B:

Just because they have a website doesn't mean they actually sell any of those pallet loads. How much do you think it costs to ship a TON of product? Alot more than you would be willing to pay. Think about it...It's like shipping a small car! Bulk freight is very expensive. It's so pricey, they are ashamed to even list the shipping price. They do not buy them from the public. They have "Their Sources". What a bunch of tools! As far as their Nickel deal goes, why would anyone in their right mind pay $340 + S/H for $300 face of Nickels. I can go to several banks within a mile of my house and buy them at face all day long. These douchebags are out on a " Phishing" trip and you know what ole' P.T. Barnum said..."There's a sucker born every minute"...If ya' buy into that scam, I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn for sale too!

[Mr Paradise]

The local shop in my old town would buy wheaties all day at .02 so I don't see why the 95% Cu should be much different soon.

Makes "cents"

Copper is around $3.84lb
$1.45 in pre-82 make a lb

[pairunoyd]

i think its most likely pennies and nickels will be marginally profitable over the next ten yrs w/ perhaps more profitable spikes here and there. I think the chances for better profits will lie 10+ yrs down the road. Having said that, I also think there is a small chance (up to 25%?) that theyll have a very good payday. Personally, I have about $1500 face in 95% copper pennies (which includes a few hundred $s worth being higher copper percentage canadians) and several 100 face in canadian nickels. I paid 1.7x face for pennies and about $12lb for canadian nickels. Why? Because i dont feel like doing the labor sorting them and i think they 99% nickels can be much more profitable. Thats all ill get unless theyre offered at near face. I mainly have them as a hedge against high inflation, as a SHTF trading object, as a resource for retirement yrs 20+ yrs down the rd and as a possible pie-in-the-sky mega return.

I say if youre of avg income and have $500-$1500 extra income/mth, throw down a couple thousand on them and forget them. I dont think its a good idea to make them the center of your portfolio because its too risky insofar as opportunity cost. Of course, there is a small chance they could be a huge payoff, but the risk is too much and i think my stack would benefit me enough if that occurs. But were all different and its up to you.

[stAGgering]

Follow-up: so I asked three different dealers here in the area while making my rounds to the different coin shops in the area. Here are some the comments I got:

#1 (laughing) "Uh I dont think so". This guy is older (roughly mid 60's) so he was alive when they made the composition change back in 1965 for silver coinage to clad. I am paraphrasing here because I don't remember his exact words but he said "people have always desired silver and gold throughouot history, especially gold. I don't remember hearing of nations going to war over copper or there ever being a Fort Knox for copper." I didnt push any further because he seemed to be getting a bit on the snotty side and his point was made.
#2 "It's not for me." I asked him for more info and he said "they take up too much room, they way too much, and people simply aren't beating down my door asking for bags of copper pennies." I asked him if he thought they would someday trade like junk silver is day and his reply was "it will be a cold day in hell before this ever happens"
#3 "I dont think it will ever become mainstream. I know where our economy is going and I get the value of moving paper money into government issued metals but I dont foresee a day where people are beating down my doors to acquire $25 face bags of coppers. Not now, not five years from now, and probably never"

Pretty interesting to see them react this way and be so adamant about their opinions. They could be wrong down the road, but will it be in any of our lifetimes? Who knows, but the more I think about and each time I look at my meager copper holdings, I often wonder if the time spent to sort through countless boxes could have been used for something more productive. I hate to be Johnny Raincloud, but I'm starting to think more in line with the dealers I talked to.

Great report.

My take upon the replies of the dealers.
They represent the masses, of whose social and financial rigidity, control.
I would, as a dealer, assume a similar position. Why consume capitol with lethargic overhead.
As an investor who utilizes foresight, my position is advanced.
Copper is likely to continue to adjust with inflation.
Why else would copper have been replaced by zinc, which replacement of is being considered.
Trading paper for base metal at 50% of its market value, is an instant 100% gain.
The risk, when TSHTF copper is unlikely to shine in the commoners eyes as precious metals may.
Possibilities abound however, as the death of a dollar and nation, is prolonged.
Reverse research as to when JPM's Blythe wench and assoc. began accumulating commodities.
Far ahead of the advanced alternative investor fringe.
The patterns and control thereof have not changed .01%.
Even though many are led to believe as such.
Not saying buy a truck load... but one can trade legally and easily for fiat if needed.

Common Indian Head pennies sell for $1.00 at local shop here. CRAZY.

[Fiat Metaler]

scrap metal dealers will be buying it for 3X face in a few years, and this will be before coin dealers.

[tesskansas]

When it becomes legal to melt cents, then the coin shops and pawn shops will be advertising.

[Nickelless]

When it becomes legal to melt cents, then the coin shops and pawn shops will be advertising.

**sigh** Here we go again...

It would be stupid to actually melt down cents for their metal content, because then you'd have to assay the melted mass to determine the metal content. Nobody has to assay intact copper cents, because anyone who knows about copper cents knows that they are 95 percent copper. Would you trust the alleged stated content of a melted glob of copper-looking metal over a bunch of copper cents whose metal content is well-established?

[Skirnir]

The dates are cumbersome to verify, and a roll of Cu cents are an order of magnitude less valuable than an roll of the most humble silver coin i.e. the dime. I do not foresee it happening.

[Eat Beef]

**sigh** Here we go again...

It would be stupid to actually melt down cents for their metal content, because then you'd have to assay the melted mass to determine the metal content. Nobody has to assay intact copper cents, because anyone who knows about copper cents knows that they are 95 percent copper. Would you trust the alleged stated content of a melted glob of copper-looking metal over a bunch of copper cents whose metal content is well-established?

Sigh, here we go again?

You're talking investor demand. Investor demand is tied to industrial demand. If there is no industrial demand, or at least a percieved future industrial demand, there is no investor demand.

IOW, if you can't melt it, it's worthless. You might read up on SLV's story of melting (actually physically shredding) pennies before you denigrate others.

[ccjoe]

There is no interest at our local cape cod LCD as of last sat.
I just e'd my cu supplier yesterday and told him that cu WILL be the new ag in a couple yrs as that will be the only store of value that the masses will be able to afford.

[GodspeedMetals]

Copper will become money when money is scarce (history tells us so).

But as another poster mentioned, when money becomes scarce, there will be no LCSs to do business with.

[Frogger]

So long as it is valued by the pound I don't see PM dealers being interested. I am, however, more than happy to hold my copper Lincolns aside until I have enough to put on eBay and turn them into silver. If someone else wants to speculate on scrap metal I will oblige them.

[CopperSilverGold]

The dates are cumbersome to verify, and a roll of Cu cents are an order of magnitude less valuable than an roll of the most humble silver coin i.e. the dime. I do not foresee it happening.

It's not that hard really. Some of their bigger players use an automated Ryedale machine. I'm not one of those bigger players but can hand sort a roll in under a minute just by weighing them on a digital scale. I weigh two at a time and if it adds up to 5.0 grams roughly then both are zinc based. If it adds up to about 5.5-5.6 grams, one is zinc and one is copper. I can usually tell just by eyeballing the two. If they add up to about 6.2 grams, then both are copper. There's no need to look at the dates unless you are looking for varities.

[B00B001000]

What are your thoughts on just having a few bags of pennies laying around just of the off chance that is things get as bad as some are predicting, pennies will come into their own as payment for things, like .10 cents for a loaf of bread??

[Gcubed]

What are your thoughts on just having a few bags of pennies laying around just of the off chance that is things get as bad as some are predicting, pennies will come into their own as payment for things, like .10 cents for a loaf of bread??

That 10 cents will work if, it's a silver dime. Pennies? NFW.

[Silver Buck]

All of my copper pennies and all of my nickels are going to my grand-niece.

It's up to her to figure out what to do with them all.

[cpthnsolo]

What are your thoughts on just having a few bags of pennies laying around just of the off chance that is things get as bad as some are predicting, pennies will come into their own as payment for things, like .10 cents for a loaf of bread??

I keep all my cooper pennies, but I don't bother with searching rolls and I would lever pay more than face. Why bother with that when you can pick up a box or two of nickels (the last bit of honest money left in America) at the bank next trip and be done with it.