Becoming the Bank in TEOTWAWKI-Good Read

[Barrettone]

Becoming the Bank in TEOTWAWKI
By: Deleted for OPSEC


Several very knowledgeable people have discussed a great many topics regarding preparedness in case of an economic catastrophe in our country. Whether it is inflation, deflation, or stagflation, the economic impact on our currency could be severe. That is why, in tandem with all my preps including a paid off, well-stocked retreat with a water filtration system, solar/wind power generators, fuel and farming gear and all the necessary supplies, I have also positioned myself to act as an interim bank/mercantile/co-op for day-to-day purchases until a new currency is established by the government. There will probably be a period, albeit a short one (I’m guessing 6 months or so…maybe longer) where US dollars will not be the preferred medium for exchange. I feel that some will barter directly for food with whatever goods or services they may have, but what does one do when they do not possess something that the other party covets or desires? It will be necessary for something to serve as a “store” of value.

The biggest problem is though, that whatever is used, it will need to be available in several small denominations and be easily recognizable to all. People tend to gravitate towards the familiar. The closest thing to our old beloved dollar will be pre-65 coinage, recognizable .999 silver bars/coins and our current 75/25 nickels and pre-82 pennies. Gold will also be coveted, but only for larger purchase in my opinion, as even a gram of gold will far exceed the purchase price of most goods needed for day-to-day living expenses. After assessing the demographic surrounding my retreat, I discovered that I had about 1,000 people in a 10 mile radius. I then established what the current AVERAGE dollar amount is for Americans to have for cash-on-hand at any given time. After pouring over several statistical analyses regarding this issue, I’ve found that that number rests between $80-$100. That basically means that for each person (man, woman and child), you would need 2-3 ounces of silver or a gram and a half of gold for each person. Your base coinage numbers would be at coinflation.com values.

The key to all this, is to not just put aside one ounce and one gram increments of bullion. You need that dollar value to be reached with a diversified breakdown of coinage and bars that allow the populace to be able to make multiple purchases with their $80-$100 worth of currency. This is where 90% dimes, quarters, half dollars, fractional bullion and quality base coinage come into play. Let’s take my 1000 person populace as an example. To serve as the “bank” for that amount of people, I have put aside these denominations:

30 ounces of gold consisting of:

(200) one gram bars, (50) 1/10 oz coins, (12) ¼ oz coins, (6) ½ oz coins, (10) 1 ounce coins and one 100 gram bar.

2200 ounces of silver consisting of:

500 ounces of Premium bars ranging from 1-10 ounces
500 ounces of Silver Eagles
500 ounces of Premium Silver rounds (Engelhard, Johnson Matthey, Maples)
$1000 face of 90% coinage ($500 in dimes, $250 in quarters and $250 in half dollars)

$2500 of base coinage consisting of:

$2000 in Nickels
$500 in pre-82 pennies


The above amounts are worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $127,500.00 at today’s “spot” value. That means, I am a little more than 25% above what I need to operate as an interim “bank”. That additional 25% will be necessary, as you still have to have additional liquidity to provide security for your “bank” and provide extra (float) money for those that wish to secure extra funds through collateralization or outright sale of their goods. People will still want “loans” to help get them through, and this will mean that if one wishes to act as a “bank”, they need to be prepared to lend and take in collateral for the loan, or be willing to act as a “mercantile” or “co-op” as people will not have a lot of money, but may also have goods that the “bank” can buy and then re-sell to others in the community. You won’t be able to act as our current-day, money-grubbing, greedy banksters do. You will need to be a staple of the community, helping others and acting as a “conduit” for exchange in a noble manner. Anything else will lead to a good old-fashioned tar-and-feathering or worse…and rightfully so. You will still have to have excellent security too, as banks have been, and always will be…TARGETS. Do not take being a bank for your local community lightly. You are definitely breaching OPSEC in many ways by acting in such a manner. However, SOMEBODY needs to do it, but you better be damn sure that your neighbors are as committed and endeared to you as you are to helping them.

Another necessary item will be a VERY LARGE BUILDING with a stock yard to serve as your center for exchange. I would definitely recommend that you build it in such a way to house a myriad of goods and products. Everything from food to livestock, to material goods such as guns, ammo, and medial supplies will need to be stored there. You will also need, of course, a vault. You’ll have to work hard, but being the center of exchange for a community has its benefits as well. When you are just a consumer, you eventually run out of money. When you are the bank/mercantile/co-op, you have continuous flow, and can make a small amount on each transaction to be able to maintain and even grow your wealth…even in a bad time. This is not a license to fleece people by any means, but most people will not begrudge you a reasonable profit for the services you provide to the community as long as you are compassionate, charitable, and friendly to all who patronize you. I am sure others will have more to add to my thoughts, and I welcome all your ideas, criticisms and additional input to becoming the “bank” in TEOTWAWKI.

–God Bless

[only4teeth]

What about security?

[Barrettone]

<QUOTES>

That additional 25% will be necessary, as you still have to have additional liquidity to provide security for your “bank”

You will also need, of course, a vault.

He also provides these anctedotes:

You won’t be able to act as our current-day, money-grubbing, greedy banksters do. You will need to be a staple of the community, helping others and acting as a “conduit” for exchange in a noble manner. Anything else will lead to a good old-fashioned tar-and-feathering or worse…and rightfully so. You will still have to have excellent security too, as banks have been, and always will be…TARGETS. Do not take being a bank for your local community lightly. You are definitely breaching OPSEC in many ways by acting in such a manner. However, SOMEBODY needs to do it, but you better be damn sure that your neighbors are as committed and endeared to you as you are to helping them.

This is not a license to fleece people by any means, but most people will not begrudge you a reasonable profit for the services you provide to the community as long as you are compassionate, charitable, and friendly to all who patronize you.

Seems to me the author is about being more "community based" with an eye toward security and having the locals more or less "on your side" to hold roving hoards of bandits at bay...while still having some private security and deterrents in place...I found it an interesting read and take on things at any rate...Sounds like he has a good approach...I really don't think ANY amount of private security could protect you if the bad guys come a knockin'...It truly takes a village.

[only4teeth]

"I really don't think ANY amount of private security could protect you if the bad guys come a knockin'...It truly takes a village."

Exactly what I was thinking

[Turner-son]

"I really don't think ANY amount of private security could protect you if the bad guys come a knockin'...It truly takes a village."

Exactly what I was thinking

Which is why the author says this:

You are definitely breaching OPSEC in many ways by acting in such a manner. However, SOMEBODY needs to do it, but you better be damn sure that your neighbors are as committed and endeared to you as you are to helping them.


Did you bother to read any part of the article at ALL?

[Not Sure]

What about security?

[Not Sure]

The subject of this thread is probably among the most valuable ever posted at GIM.

[Barrettone]

Sticky worthy???

[Nickelless]

Sticky worthy???

I'd say it is. I'll drop a message to Scorpio.

[TnAndy]

You'd have to act more like a pawnshop or second hand store than a bank, and have that mindset.

The great advantage "banks" have is they can conjure up "money" out of thin air on a ratio of about 10:1 of deposits to manufactured money.....meaning they can take fairly risky loans on either no collateral or shaky collateral, because if even 1/2 of them fail, they simply aren't out much, as long as they keep their overhead reasonable.

Running a non-fractional reserve bank, especially with a low amount of starting capital, you wouldn't have the luxury of "throw it against the wall and we'll take what sticks".....you would HAVE to be covered pretty much 100% ( or more, depending on how liquid/marketable the collateral was ), or risk being a bankrupt bank pretty quick.

Are people gonna need loans ? Sure....they've been living on credit cards, payday loans, title loans, home equity loans, and so on for years....and their real, AFTER THSTF assets aren't gonna be worth much.....how many big screen TVs and SUV's is the world gonna need when the grid is down and gasoline non-existent ?

My guess is there are a whole lot of wrinkles in this guy's plan, and a whole lot of expense for security he hasn't factored in yet.

[GOLD DUCK]

QWAK,I have pondered on this same issue many times over the years here at the DUCK NEST and every which way I look at it the BANK or as "TRAIDING POST" would be asking for TROUBLE and just trying to reinvent the WHEEL when all the "BIG WHEELS" is what caused the CRASH to happen!

I am thinking more along the lines of a MAJOR change in PERCEPTIONS of ALL the SURVIVORS after the dust settles and the ZOMBIES have died off one way or another people GRAVITATING to an IDEALISTIC and HONERABLE level of COOPERATION because THAT is what made it posable for them to SURVIVE the CRASH and BURN of the corupted FIAT system!

No actual GOVERNMENT to inforce spicific rules or "LAWS" but rather indivigual FREE WILL of the survivors deciding to CONTRIBUTE to the best of there personal ABILITIES what ever they can so that THEY can get the SUPORT they need from the others AND the KNOWING that the next generation will NOT survive or even come in to existence IF they don't!

The TRANSITION is happening and the KEY to the FUTURE will be in FORGIVING ALL DEBTS and TRANSGRESSIONS and the SHARING of RESOURCES in the most eficient way so that ALL will have what they NEED and OUT of the transition will come a CONICOPIA of WEALTH and PROSPARITY!

Kind of a CRAZY vision of the future I agree but JUST hiting the RESET BUTTON and doing the same old -- SAME OLD over agen in my opinion would be just puting FUTURE GENERATIONS in the HELL we KNOW is COMING and WE hope to SURVIVE!

I have worked TOO HARD and TOO LONG for SOMTHING BETTER and I intend to give my ALL to try and make THAT HAPPEN!

Going to get DEAD any way can't take any thing with me

IF with my last BREATH I can HONISTLY say and BELIEVE that --- WHAT is here after I am GONE is BETTER for ALL, than IF I had never been than I will have FINELY had a SUCESSFULL LIFE after all the work,time and effort -- I have FINELY WON!

I am READY to GO HOME!

the DUCK

[fasTTcar]

You'd have to act more like a pawnshop or second hand store than a bank, and have that mindset.

That is exactly right. Take a look around your local area. How many Pawn shops, we buy gold places, check cashing and payday loan places are you close too?

They are already doing it. They are already the "bank" for many people and would become even more so if THSTF.

You will NOT be able to become that bank after some sort of SHTF happens. You have to be set up and doing business before that happens.

I quit my job and am building my local "bank" as we speak. We already serve hundreds of customers every week and will continue to do so if TEOTWAWKI comes or not.

[Silver]

My plan is to use pizza as money - with my mobile wood-fired pizza kitchen trailer. As long as there is flour and a few things to put on top (anything from salt and herbs to cheese and tomato, bacon or whatever is available) and wood to fire up the oven - I'll have a trade good. Or bake bread if that is all there is work with.

Being a gold and silver banker would not be my 1st choice - but accepting gold and silver for pizza or trading or giving credit for pizza would work. Plus, after it is consumed - it's gone.

I've worked out the whole skill set - designed and built the oven, built the trailer, captured the sourdough culture off of wild mustang grapes, and used the Farmer's Market to practice the operation. Sales were unbelievable, but it is hard work!

[Marsmanmd]

Becoming the Bank in TEOTWAWKI
By: Deleted for OPSEC


Several very knowledgeable people have discussed a great many topics regarding preparedness in case of an economic catastrophe in our country. Whether it is inflation, deflation, or stagflation, the economic impact on our currency could be severe. That is why, in tandem with all my preps including a paid off, well-stocked retreat with a water filtration system, solar/wind power generators, fuel and farming gear and all the necessary supplies, I have also positioned myself to act as an interim bank/mercantile/co-op for day-to-day purchases until a new currency is established by the government. There will probably be a period, albeit a short one (I’m guessing 6 months or so…maybe longer) where US dollars will not be the preferred medium for exchange. I feel that some will barter directly for food with whatever goods or services they may have, but what does one do when they do not possess something that the other party covets or desires? It will be necessary for something to serve as a “store” of value.

The biggest problem is though, that whatever is used, it will need to be available in several small denominations and be easily recognizable to all. People tend to gravitate towards the familiar. The closest thing to our old beloved dollar will be pre-65 coinage, recognizable .999 silver bars/coins and our current 75/25 nickels and pre-82 pennies. Gold will also be coveted, but only for larger purchase in my opinion, as even a gram of gold will far exceed the purchase price of most goods needed for day-to-day living expenses. After assessing the demographic surrounding my retreat, I discovered that I had about 1,000 people in a 10 mile radius. I then established what the current AVERAGE dollar amount is for Americans to have for cash-on-hand at any given time. After pouring over several statistical analyses regarding this issue, I’ve found that that number rests between $80-$100. That basically means that for each person (man, woman and child), you would need 2-3 ounces of silver or a gram and a half of gold for each person. Your base coinage numbers would be at coinflation.com values.

The key to all this, is to not just put aside one ounce and one gram increments of bullion. You need that dollar value to be reached with a diversified breakdown of coinage and bars that allow the populace to be able to make multiple purchases with their $80-$100 worth of currency. This is where 90% dimes, quarters, half dollars, fractional bullion and quality base coinage come into play. Let’s take my 1000 person populace as an example. To serve as the “bank” for that amount of people, I have put aside these denominations:

30 ounces of gold consisting of:

(200) one gram bars, (50) 1/10 oz coins, (12) ¼ oz coins, (6) ½ oz coins, (10) 1 ounce coins and one 100 gram bar.

2200 ounces of silver consisting of:

500 ounces of Premium bars ranging from 1-10 ounces
500 ounces of Silver Eagles
500 ounces of Premium Silver rounds (Engelhard, Johnson Matthey, Maples)
$1000 face of 90% coinage ($500 in dimes, $250 in quarters and $250 in half dollars)

$2500 of base coinage consisting of:

$2000 in Nickels
$500 in pre-82 pennies


The above amounts are worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $127,500.00 at today’s “spot” value. That means, I am a little more than 25% above what I need to operate as an interim “bank”. That additional 25% will be necessary, as you still have to have additional liquidity to provide security for your “bank” and provide extra (float) money for those that wish to secure extra funds through collateralization or outright sale of their goods. People will still want “loans” to help get them through, and this will mean that if one wishes to act as a “bank”, they need to be prepared to lend and take in collateral for the loan, or be willing to act as a “mercantile” or “co-op” as people will not have a lot of money, but may also have goods that the “bank” can buy and then re-sell to others in the community. You won’t be able to act as our current-day, money-grubbing, greedy banksters do. You will need to be a staple of the community, helping others and acting as a “conduit” for exchange in a noble manner. Anything else will lead to a good old-fashioned tar-and-feathering or worse…and rightfully so. You will still have to have excellent security too, as banks have been, and always will be…TARGETS. Do not take being a bank for your local community lightly. You are definitely breaching OPSEC in many ways by acting in such a manner. However, SOMEBODY needs to do it, but you better be damn sure that your neighbors are as committed and endeared to you as you are to helping them.

Another necessary item will be a VERY LARGE BUILDING with a stock yard to serve as your center for exchange. I would definitely recommend that you build it in such a way to house a myriad of goods and products. Everything from food to livestock, to material goods such as guns, ammo, and medial supplies will need to be stored there. You will also need, of course, a vault. You’ll have to work hard, but being the center of exchange for a community has its benefits as well. When you are just a consumer, you eventually run out of money. When you are the bank/mercantile/co-op, you have continuous flow, and can make a small amount on each transaction to be able to maintain and even grow your wealth…even in a bad time. This is not a license to fleece people by any means, but most people will not begrudge you a reasonable profit for the services you provide to the community as long as you are compassionate, charitable, and friendly to all who patronize you. I am sure others will have more to add to my thoughts, and I welcome all your ideas, criticisms and additional input to becoming the “bank” in TEOTWAWKI.

–God Bless

I like your idea! I would be willing to put some of my Gold and Silver securities. I would also pledge some on my Gold/Silver and money make the idea become real. Security would be an issue but it could be managed. I thing a Savings and Loan would be better that a bank. I would also consider a smelting operation important. I like a trading post as well as a bank a grand idea.

[Not Sure]

Sticky worthy???

I'd say so. This topic is among the (few) practical ideas for transitioning to a "new (local) economy."

[Zilver]

[Nickelless]

Here's a related post from Survivalblog:

Barter, Post-TEOTWAWKI: The Micro Store

[fasTTcar]

It is already happening:

Spain barter economy wins followers in grip of crisis
Mon, Feb 20 2012

By John Stonestreet

MADRID (Reuters) - It's 10.30 on a chilly winter's morning in central Madrid and retailer Emanuela Scena is opening up for business.

Her shop is one of several offering second-hand goods that have sprung up in Spain's capital during the economic crisis and is packed to the rafters with clothes, books, CDs and electrical equipment.

But unlike the others, it doesn't take cash. It's part of a barter economy in goods and services that is gaining ground as the country tips into recession and already sky-high unemployment rates inch up.

Finding different ways of generating business has also inspired stores in two towns to start accepting the peseta again, encouraging customers more than a hour's drive away to root through cupboards and drawers for a currency they thought they'd surrendered for good in 2002.

"When we started (in December 2010), Spain was already in crisis. At first people didn't like the fact that everything we were exchanging was second-hand, but now they understand," Scena said.

'Abrete Sesamo' (Open Sesame) - "we liked the idea of a name suggesting Ali Baba's cave of treasures" - now gets up to 20 customers a day swapping goods for points they earn by bringing in items of their own and paying a small subscription fee.

People can also buy points just with euros, "but they're more expensive that way because we want to encourage bartering."

As a storeholder, Scena is an exception in a small but growing parallel economy that is being fuelled mainly by a clutch of websites, paid for by advertising and offering platforms for the cash-free exchange of everything from language classes and dog-walking to furniture and cars.

It has also encouraged discounting in Spain's residential property market, which collapsed in 2007 when an asset bubble burst, saddling banks with a mountain of toxic loans and making them less inclined to issue mortgages to new customers.

PROTECTING CASHFLOW

Sabino Liebana, whose company atodatinta sells printers and accessories via the web, is part of the expanding business-to-business barter community.

During 2010 he paid the 600-euro-per-month rent on his Madrid office with goods instead of money.

"It was mostly printers and inks, and a few computers," he said. "The landlord rented at the same price to me as to his other tenants. I gave my products to him at a discount, but never below the cost price."

He was happy to take the hit, he says, because it meant he could protect his cashflow better.

"Because of liquidity problems I think it (bartering) is something that will be used by more and more firms, especially in the service industry," he said, adding he'd "rather not say" how much profit he made last year on sales of 500,000 euros.

He has made around a dozen cash-free transactions in the past six months, mostly for advertising and web design work and often via Barcelona-based exchange portal acambiode.com.

Founded in Spain in 2001, the site covers most of the Spanish-speaking world plus Italy and Portugal.

Worldwide it has 310,000 clients, mostly small firms or professionals from across the business spectrum, and 2-3,000 more are signing up every month, director Jaime Martinez said.

The 67,000 Spain-based users seal around half a dozen either pure barter or part-cash deals daily worth some 5,000 euros each on average, or close to 10 million euros of business per year.

The site expanded rapidly when the financial crisis hit in 2008 and is now experiencing another growth spurt that Martinez expects to extend through the slump as more firms look to focus their cash outgoings on keeping themselves in business.

"We are seeing a lot more activity in Spain than in previous years," he said. "Bartering is another way of financing your purchases if you have liquidity problems, which means you can save your cash for more urgent matters."

One obvious issue for the government is how to keep track of barter transactions. Spain's tax office could not shed much light on how taxes were assessed but confirmed all barter transactions were liable for tax.

"The key issue is how the barter exchange is valued. Tax legislation contains very specific guidelines for the fiscal valuation of goods and services, and this is mostly based on market price," said tax office spokesman Luis Gonzalez, declining to elaborate further.

Acambiode.com's Martinez said in his business, both domestic and international transactions were taxed just as they would be if they were cash-based.

But Jose Maria Mollinedo, vice president of Spain's Gestha union of tax inspectors, admitted the barter economy was a "totally opaque market (that is) ... impossible to monitor."

CHEAPER REAL ESTATE?

In Spain, signs of funding strains are hard to miss.

Since mid-January, around half a dozen listed firms have said they are seeking to refinance their debt or secure new repayment terms.

The latter include commercial property developer Inmobiliaria Colonial and real estate manager and developer Quabit, both survivors of a crash that has seen average prices of existing property fall by 29 percent in just over four years, industry data shows.

With mortgage lending down even more sharply, dropping a third in the year to November according to official figures, conditions are ripe for a surge in barter transactions in the real estate market too.

"We have grown tremendously fast just via word of mouth," said Eneka Tamayo of sepermuta, the residential property exchange website he runs in the Basque city of San Sebastian.

Founded in 2008, it has some 6,900 homes posted and gets around 40,000-50,000 hits per month. Sellers give guide prices for their property and a wish list of what they are seeking in exchange at the same value.

Tamayo expects the number of posts to keep rising until the market recovers, "and I can't see that happening any time soon."

"Lots of people want to buy and don't know how, if they don't have work ... and if the banks aren't lending," he said. "If you already have a house, this way you don't need to raise a lot of extra (money)."

Tax is levied on barter transactions at 7 percent, the same as on cash-based property sales. But Tamayo argues that using property exchange works out cheaper.

"If you sell a home for money, you look for the highest possible price. If you exchange you hold the price as low as possible and so pay less tax," he said.

Comparisons bear the argument out.

A user of the website looking to move to Valencia has valued his four-bed flat in Leganes, part of Madrid's commuter belt, at 240,000 euros. An estate agent is selling a slightly larger flat in the same street for 435,000.

A three-bed flat in Denia, a town on the Costa Blanca north of Alicante, carries a barter valuation of 145,000 euros. In the cash market, a smaller flat three doors down is on offer for 180,000.

TIME IS MONEY

Internet-based platforms for bartering services such as English tutoring or Spanish cooking classes, known as time banks, include depersonaapersona, launched last September in Madrid by Ignacio Cristobal Martin.

"It's a bit more complicated (than exchanging goods). You have to have confidence in the other person, that they are of good faith," he said.

Martin believes that is one reason why, in a country where close to one in four of the economically active population are unemployed, his website has not attracted more than around 800 users and 5,000 hits per month.

In an effort to expand more quickly, he plans a relaunch with a tighter code of behavior for users and the capacity to blacklist those who fail to provide the services offered.

Salvaterra de Mino, in northwest Spain, has had no trouble drumming up custom for its innovative contribution to the economy, drawing shoppers from up to 100 km (60 miles) away since it launched 'operation peseta' in October.

Nearly 50 local businesses signed up for the initiative, and the town has collected the equivalent of 12,000 euros in Spain's old currency, which it swaps with banking authorities at the euro-entry conversion rate of just over 166 pesetas per euro.

"We didn't think there'd be such a big response," said Pablo Pino, who heads the local trade association. "It's also a way of putting Salvaterra on the map."

Consumers in the Madrid catchment area have managed to cash in, too. The town of Villamayor de Santiago, southeast of the capital, ran an identical scheme that ended on February 17 - though not for want of pesetas.

Some 1.7 billion euros worth of the currency remains in circulation, according to the country's central bank, which says it has no plans to place limits on the peseta's validity. Around 14 million euros worth was exchanged directly at the bank last year.

A central bank spokesman declined to comment on whether similar initiatives might take off in other parts of the euro zone, which like Spain are sinking into recession.

Some consumers look to have missed the boat, however. France discontinued exchange facilities for the franc on February 17 and Finland will do likewise for the markka later this month.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81J0NJ20120220

[Barrettone]

You'd have to act more like a pawnshop or second hand store than a bank, and have that mindset.

He says as much in the article:

"or be willing to act as a “mercantile” or “co-op” as people will not have a lot of money, but may also have goods that the “bank” can buy and then re-sell to others in the community."

[Not Sure]

He says as much in the article:

"or be willing to act as a “mercantile” or “co-op” as people will not have a lot of money, but may also have goods that the “bank” can buy and then re-sell to others in the community."

Don't let the detractors in this thread discourage you (I'm not referring to TnAndy - his comments are relevant & reasonable).

When "it" comes, there need to be some of us willing to take the risk to maintain a semblance of civilization. Certain "institutions" (services) will need to be maintained or replaced. Who wants to live in a "Mad Max" world of endless and ubiquitous brutality, hit & run, take whatever you can forcibly attain? I'll accept whatever "risks" there are to try to maintain community, hopefully a better one albeit not one nearly as materially well-off as now.

There are some things more important than simply existing another day at any cost.

[Barrettone]

Don't let the detractors in this thread discourage you (I'm not referring to TnAndy - his comments are relevant & reasonable).

When "it" comes, there need to be some of us willing to take the risk to maintain a semblance of civilization. Certain "institutions" (services) will need to be maintained or replaced. Who wants to live in a "Mad Max" world of endless and ubiquitous brutality, hit & run, take whatever you can forcibly attain? I'll accept whatever "risks" there are to try to maintain community, hopefully a better one albeit not one nearly as materially well-off as now.

There are some things more important than simply existing another day at any cost.

Oh I don't mind a little difference of opinion...that is just "spirited debate"....lol