weed control in a orchard ?

[still afloat]

Had a nice section of my yard that I wanted to turn into a small orchard of dwarf fruit trees . 2 apple 2 pear and 2 cherry trees . and a 24 x 15 garden area . fenced it off to keep dog out . 3 plank wooden fence . Good airflow .
This was normal yard normal grass area , mowed the same as the rest of yard , but this season it is now over run with a weed that grows fast and is taking over the entire area ,none in the rest of the yard at all . what can i spray to kill the weeds yet leave the grass and not harm the trees ?
Second , what can I use to kill the weeds in the garden area prior to planting the garden that would be safe for the plants to be planted later and not affect the quality or safety of the garden output.
Last year the weeds grew thicker and faster than the plants and faster than I could chop it out and pull them, normal weeds and grass . Help ,1 bad leg and 1 arm makes normal weeding etc almost impossible but trying .

[coopersmith]

I may be hazed but.........

id spray a 6' circle around the trees with roundup then begin hoeing or lite tilling w machine to keep the grass/weeds at bay. It may not be kosher for some, but the initial knockdown will give you some control to start.

Runner ducks or some chickens will keep the weeds down as well, maybe w a little help from you.

[Argentsum]

What kind of weeds are we talking? There's a world of difference between dandelion and thistle.

[smilershouse]

That is a tricky one,

I use Glysophate for the surrounds around the trees, you have to be careful to;

Never use when windy
Use as recommended.
Dilute as per instructions.

My paddock was covered too. All I done was donned a nap sack, and each morning went up and down the paddock, moving across each day. Took a while, but after a couple of weeks, all weeds dead.

Hope this helps.

SH

[still afloat]

What kind of weeds are we talking? There's a world of difference between dandelion and thistle.

as to type of weed i'm not sure , dandelion or thistle i could handle .
This is a fine stem small leaf semi vine like in a way that it laces together and its almost impossible for me to even walk through with my leg that wont bend enough to step over it .
I may have to take a picture of it when i get back home this weekend .

[GOLDZILLA]

I would recommend a lawn mower rather than chemicals. You could use a rider or pay the neighbor kid to do it. Do you really want to risk killing your trees or ingesting that stuff later?

[still afloat]

I may be hazed but.........

id spray a 6' circle around the trees with roundup then begin hoeing or lite tilling w machine to keep the grass/weeds at bay. It may not be kosher for some, but the initial knockdown will give you some control to start.

Runner ducks or some chickens will keep the weeds down as well, maybe w a little help from you.

There is good grass below the weeds so would like to kill the weeds without killing the grass ,
for some reason they call ducks and chickens livestock round here and dont allow them LOL
even though on the other side of my fence there is 8 horses in a 30 x 30 muddy pen .

[still afloat]

I would recommend a lawn mower rather than chemicals. You could use a rider or pay the neighbor kid to do it. Do you really want to risk killing your trees or ingesting that stuff later?

I'd prefer no chems as well but even mowing it the weeds grow in less than a week about 12 + - inches compared to the grass @ 1 to 2 inches .
last year this weed did not exsist here yet this spring its going crazy but only in the area fenced in , no where else .

[Someone_else]

I would NOT want to kill my soil. Killing your soil is probably a really bad idea. Even if you can buy franken-seeds that can live with the poisoned soil.

Someone earlier mentioned acetic acid solution as an effective spray. A 5% solution (cheap vinegar) should be useful when sprayed directly on the weeds.

[coopersmith]

There is good grass below the weeds so would like to kill the weeds without killing the grass ,
for some reason they call ducks and chickens livestock round here and dont allow them LOL
even though on the other side of my fence there is 8 horses in a 30 x 30 muddy pen .

I would get rid of the grass as well, it catches and eats alot of the rain and nutes the trees would get. Plowed weed free ground is good, the trees will get all there is to be had. grass is a hog......I like plums myself, cant get enough and late freezes get most all...........high plains what can a guy do........hehehe

if you can smell horse **** from your back porch and you cant have some chickens there is a problem.

[gnome]

Glycophostphates will kill your 'weeds' along with beneficials - soil bacteria, fungi, pollinating insects like bees, frogs - not to mention the harm to oneself and family.

Perhaps worse, it is voting with your dollars for a company that is well on it's way to obtaining totalitarian control of the food supply. Thanks bro!

As mentioned above, vinegar is a viable and non-toxic weedkiller.

If it were me, I'd pull up the weeds by hand best I could (aerates soil), drop them in place, then cover up with 2 layers of cardboard and then mulch at least 10 inches deep in woodchips (not pine bark!). Track down local tree service and tell them to dump their chips in your driveway for free.

If cardboard plus woochips won't keep the undesireables down, old carpet will.

Then I'd plant aggressively into the mulch whatever I want to replace the weeds.

In my own forest garden, I am working on planting every inch with something useful to me to out-compete the weeds. Weeds seek to fill a vacuum. If there is no vacuum, no weeds.

In some cases out-weeding the weeds means encouraging edible weeds such as dandelion, arugula (yes, a weed), purslane, sow thistle, lambs quarters, etc.

I am working on planting blueberries, raspberries, goji berries in the understory as well.

A lot of perennial herbs make great companions for fruit trees and provide bee forage to make sure there are plenty of pollinators around when the fruit trees are feeling sexy. Grass does not interest bees. Clover is a much better bee forage, and a nitrogen fixer (will fertilize the trees), and is also edible and medicinal.

Chives and other members of alliums are good companions for most fruit trees.

Sprawling squashes make great groundcover.

Get over this stupid idea of a sterilized factory farm with everything in need rows. That looks like order, but in fact it is and unstable system that requires massive inputs of energy to maintain, and will forever require more and more inputs and give you less and less yield. Don't fight against nature. Work with it. Otherwise you are just pissing in the wind. Design a system that manages itself - yeah, it will be more work at first, but the rewards will last a lifetime - or 500 years if you planted olives.

This video gets across the basic idea here. Ignore the hippie-speak if that doesn't work for you, but understand that the Bullocks brothers have been growing fruit trees for decades and they are not blowing smoke...

[gnome]

I would get rid of the grass as well, it catches and eats alot of the rain and nutes the trees would get. Plowed weed free ground is good, the trees will get all there is to be had. grass is a hog......

Plowed ground is a public service announcement for every weed within 200 miles to back their bags and come running. Vacant homes free on a first come first serve basis!!! Weeds are genetically designed to take advantage of disturbed ground until natural succession turns the ground into a forest. You haven't solved a problem, you have just kicked the can down the road and created a need for permanent maintenance expenses.

Your soil fertility just blew away in the wind. Now you need fertilizers. 2 problems where you had one before. Your costs now include gasoline and maintenance for the tractor and fertilizers. Every year. Forever.

Bare ground is very rare in nature, except where man has wrecked the place and it will take 1000 years to recover without intervention. Take a look at ruined civilizations everywhere.

Another thin, plowing within the drip line will shred the delicate feeder roots of the fruit trees.

[GOLDZILLA]

You could also get a propane tank with one of those big burning wands and burn them away after mowing.

[ralleia]

gnome's suggestion of mulching with cardboard and then holding that down with a layer of wood chip mulch is a very good one. The absence of light will over time kill all the weeds, while the cardboard and wood chips will break down into organic material over the course of the years to feed the trees. In the meantime, the mulch shelters earthworms and other soil life and keeps the tree roots cooler in summer. The soil life helps to keep the trees healthy.

You'll want to avoid mulch touching the trees' trunks though--since the added moisture can bring fungal diseases, or encourage the not-so-beneficial bugs to attack the trees.

Cardboard boxes are easy to get from the liquor store or the grocery. The grocery store has the biggest and best boxes. My local store stocks on Tuesdays, ??? and Saturday (it's been a while since I've been there) and they say to show up by 7 a.m. to collect the boxes--after that they are hauled away. Find out what you local grocer does and start collecting now.

You can also use newspapers, layered at least 14 sheets thick. But they are more challenging to work with on windy days.

Once all the weeds are killed off and the woodchips are starting to turn to compost, you can plant your cover crop. A low-growing clover mix will "fix" nitrogen in the soil and attract pollinators and is reputed to be an excellent choice in orchards.

[jogslvr]

Under my fruit trees ( 5 peaches, 2 apples, 1 plum, and 12 blue berry) planted 5 years ago, I used Typar weed barrier fabric first, then the circular recycled rubber mulch mats made for trees, then topped those with pine straw mulch which must be added to occasionally to help retain moisture during dry spells. It is working quite well thus far.

While I'm at it, don't use commercial fertilizers the first year. And, be very careful not to use too much in subsequent years and when/if used, apply no closer to the trunk than the drip line.

[ttazzman]

as far as herbicides go you really just have three basic options (availible in spray or grandules)

#1 kill everything
#2 kill broadleafs only
#33 kill grass's only


Care is needed for any work inside a tree drip line

Mulching is the way to go in my opinion ...can be done with many things...carpet scraps..newspaper...commercial mulch...etc

some of the best gardens i have seen were grown though holes in carpet scraps

[Lt Dan]

Not being sure of what kind of weeds you have or what part of the country you live in is an issue as some weeds grow up big in the spring and then die off when it gets hot.

The best two free types of 'mulch' I know of are, tree leaves and grass clippings. That is, if you can get them or have friends who would save you their's. Wood chips are ok, but not great for building up your garden soil. For garden areas, cardboard makes good mulch if you also can put grass or leaves on top of this - even better. Best if the cardboard or even newspaper do not have colored ink on it as the ink can contain chemicals that will get into the plants and thus into you. Weeds by themselves are not so bad, as they too can become mulch. Wack them down before the can go to seed and use the free mulch to improve the soil. You see where I'm going with this. The more chemicals you use the more you will need to use and the more likelihood you will end up with them in your body.

Anything you spray on your soil can potentially become part of you, eek, if it gets into your food supply. Areas that can be kept mowed actually should be and whoever is mowing your yard should also be able to keep the grass mowed inside the fence, if there is an access gate.

[gnome]

Weeds by themselves are not so bad, as they too can become mulch. Wack them down before the can go to seed and use the free mulch to improve the soil.

Exactly.

Many weeds are dynamic accumulators - one reason they thrive in your particular soil because they are very good at extracting the minerals that are deficient in your soil. For example, dandelion accumulates magnesium, iron, calcium, phosphorous, potassium, silica & more. If you mulch the weed and it breaks down, those accumulated minerals are now available to the orchard in a pre-digested form. Plus the carbon and sugars in the composting weed feed the beneficial fungi and soil bacteria that, in turn, feed the tree and provide a balanced soil ecology that will be less prone to disease.

Here is a list of weeds and the minerals they accumulate:

http://oregonbd.org/Class/accum.htm

[Unclad Lad]

Have you considered that your "weeds" might have as much value as the fruit?

Take dandelions. The young leaves are prized for salads and are extremely good for you. The roots can be roasted as a coffee substitute, and the flowers can make wine. Another common one is plantain.

If you can, pick a few and look them up; that could be a crop you're looking to kill!

[Hope+Change]

as to type of weed i'm not sure , dandelion or thistle i could handle .
This is a fine stem small leaf semi vine like in a way that it laces together and its almost impossible for me to even walk through with my leg that wont bend enough to step over it .
I may have to take a picture of it when i get back home this weekend .

Hedge clippers may work well.

[Zilver]

you may want to read about planting a "fruit tree guild"

I just started looking into the method and do not have much knowledge about this yet,
but it sounds like a great natural way to go about controlling weeds with other useful plants

Guild Planting:
By organizing plantings into guilds where each plant included will provide benefits for the other plants, one can create incredibly productive food forests and help to establish perennial systems more quickly & efficiently. Also the whole idea of inter-plantings or 'guilds' is not to create competitions but to create mutually beneficial plant/insect/bird/tree relationships. For example, a planting of peas or beans around your tree will add nitrogen to the soil and the tree provides a scaffold for a place the beans can grow. Also the bean foliage can protect a young tree from getting too much sun. Mix in a few sunflowers to create biomass and perhaps a dill plant to attract beneficial insects, now we are off and running.

.................................................. .........................................

[Irons]

The orchard trees probably won't totally hide your weed so it's a good idea to hang some red and green christmas bulbs on them so the helicopters think they are tomato plants.

Don't ask me how I know this.

[gnome]

As for roundup....

Science News

Weed killer causes animal shape changes

Monsanto Chemical Company headquarters in Creve Coeur, Mo. Bill Greenblatt/UPI License photo




Published: April 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM

Advertisement

PITTSBURGH, April 2 (UPI) -- The world's most popular weed killer can induce morphological changes in vertebrate animals, U.S. biologists studying its effect on amphibians say.
University of Pittsburgh researchers said the weed killer Roundup, in sub-lethal and environmentally relevant concentrations, caused two species of amphibians to change their shape.
The study is the first to show that a pesticide can induce morphological changes in a vertebrate animal, biological sciences Professor Rick Relyea said in a university release Monday.
Roundup is a systemic, broad-spectrum herbicide produced by the U.S. company Monsanto.
The presence of predators can cause tadpoles to change shape by altering the tadpoles' stress hormones, Relyea said, causing them to grow bigger tails to better escape.
But similar shape changes seen after exposure to Roundup suggest the weed killer may interfere with the hormones of tadpoles and potentially many other animals, Relyea said.
"It was not surprising to see that the smell of predators in the water induced larger tadpole tails," Relyea said. "That is a normal, adaptive response.
"What shocked us was that the Roundup induced the same changes. Moreover, the combination of predators and Roundup caused the tail changes to be twice as large."
Because tadpoles alter their body shape to match their environment, having a body shape that does not fit the environment can put the animals at a distinct disadvantage, the researchers said.
"This discovery highlights the fact that pesticides, which are important for crop production and human health, can have unintended consequences for species that are not the pesticide's target," Relyea said.
"Herbicides are not designed to affect animals, but we are learning that they can have a wide range of surprising effects by altering how hormones work in the bodies of animals.
"This is important because amphibians not only serve as a barometer of the ecosystem's health, but also as an indicator of potential dangers to other species in the food chain, including humans."




Read more: http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2012...#ixzz1ro9t4jEj

[earplugs]

Throw a handful of salt all over the ground, one handful of god's chosen kosher salt per square foot will do.

[BikerJon]

Second , what can I use to kill the weeds in the garden area prior to planting the garden that would be safe for the plants to be planted later and not affect the quality or safety of the garden output.

I recently used a vinegar + salt + dish soap solution to kill of some weeds and bits of grass before I built my raised beds.
I've read that just vinegar also works but less effective.
I've also read it may take a few treatments to be 100% effective.

So far so good. It seems the trick is you want to spray the weeds / grass when the plants are thirsty so they drink it up right away. Nice warm sunny day and dry soil would be best.

[brewer]

After you trim back the weeds close to the trees you can lay down a single layer of asphalt shingles around the perimeter of each tree.
The shingles will create a weed barrier and settle flat so that you can mow over them.

[still afloat]

OK , looks like it is chickweed
looks like it would have some use other than just a weed but it also seems to be overtaking land everywhere around here so not a prized herb to keep growing in the trees.
perhaps collecting and drying some and the rest can go.
Thanks for the help and suggestions.

[gnome]

OK , looks like it is chickweed
looks like it would have some use other than just a weed but it also seems to be overtaking land everywhere around here so not a prized herb to keep growing in the trees.
perhaps collecting and drying some and the rest can go.
Thanks for the help and suggestions.

A few different things may be called chickweed, if it's stellaria, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellaria_media, then we encourage that one at our place. Ate a little bit in a salad last night. My wife is Japanese, and they eat it very lightly boiled with salt or shoyu. It is one of the 7 herbs traditionally eaten after new years to purify after feasting.



Also makes great chicken forage - but I think you mentioned something about no chickens @ your place.

What to do with it once you dry it?

[Unsustainable]

As for roundup....

Roundup is illegal to use in aquatic areas due to the surfactant that has a greater toxicity and lower LD50 than the glyphosate active ingredient....that's why it's not classified for these areas.
The research you quote is illegal and illegitimate = bad science. Bad scientist. Propaganda science and misinformation flogged in the media for years.
The researcher conducted a criminal act by not following manufacturers instructions and using Roundup against its classified use.

Use the aquatic registered formulation of glyphosate w/a benign, naturally derived aquatic surfactant such as Cide-Kick II et al.
Of course, then you can't demonize evil Monsanto.

Try mechanical cutting/removal of weeds first, mulching second, use of an organic/natural herbicide (especially after a cut) to reduce or suppress unwanted vegetation under trees that can rob fruits of vital water and nutrients via competition. Also, orchard trees are relatively thin barked making the use of any chemical product increasingly problematic due to uptake through the bark.

Roundup as the silver bullet for veg control IS becoming old-school due to overuse and problems that arise...there are some cool substitutes or methods to rotate its use in a smart integrated vegetation management program.

[still afloat]

What to do with it once you dry it?

it appears with a quick look on line that it has uses for pain relief , asthma, eczema .etc
I have pain 24/7 since '85 only heavy meds that leave me non functional eases it, so might be worth a try. Kids have both Asthma and Eczema , for them though the external use i'd feel more comfortable trying in small areas to see if it helps more than the lotions we use now.

[charlie1023]

I recently used a vinegar + salt + dish soap solution to kill of some weeds and bits of grass before I built my raised beds.
I've read that just vinegar also works but less effective.
I've also read it may take a few treatments to be 100% effective.

So far so good. It seems the trick is you want to spray the weeds / grass when the plants are thirsty so they drink it up right away. Nice warm sunny day and dry soil would be best.

Hey Biker,
What ration of vinegar/salt/soap did you use for weed killer? Want to try an replicate your cocktail and see if it will work for me, thanks.

[Fiat Metaler]

The orchard trees probably won't totally hide your weed so it's a good idea to hang some red and green christmas bulbs on them so the helicopters think they are tomato plants.

Don't ask me how I know this.

lol .

[BikerJon]

Hey Biker,
What ration of vinegar/salt/soap did you use for weed killer? Want to try an replicate your cocktail and see if it will work for me, thanks.

I used a full gallon of Vinegar + about a cup of salt + a tablespoon of dish soap.



My Source:
http://www.garden-counselor-lawn-car...ed-killer.html

[pay dirt]

Pet rabbits. Get angora kind they provide wool if a person does not like to eat them. Need to keep them out of the garden or use a movable fence in small areas to eat the weeds. They make good fertilizer too.