My off-grid solar set up

[<SLV>]

I've finally got all of the parts ordered for my system. I think it is better than I was expecting, and I was able to get exceptionally good prices (mostly due to connections with an insider):

Magnum 4024 (4kw, 24v) pure sine wave inverter -- $1,450
Magnum ARC50 remote control -- $150
Magnum battery management meter -- $130
Magnum automatic generator start -- $200
Magnum MMP250-30DD electrical panel -- $425
Magnum back panel for mounting inverter and electrical -- $60
Midnite Classic 150v MPPT charge controller -- $550
Midnite 15A DC breakers (4) -- $40
Trina 230W panels (6) -- $1,750
Midnite combiner box -- $67

I am getting a lightly used 1,040 ah (20 hour rating) battery bank (24 2v Deka cells tied together into 2 parallel strings of 24v) for $2,000 from the local Deka battery distributor. I have also picked up a like-new Honda EM6500SX generator for $1,800. The generator has a 3-wire remote start that will work with the Magnum AGS.

My total cost (minus shipping on the solar panels and miscelaneous wires nuts and bolts) comes to $8,622. I was trying to stay at a budget of $9,000 total, so I think I got the best system I could get at that price.


I'm going to be building my own mounts for the pv panels.

Pictures will come once I start setting everything up.

[TnAndy]

Sounds good ! Pictures would be great.

[TimoneX]

Very nice! Now make with the s0lar Pr0n or it didn't happen.

[<SLV>]

All I've got in hand right now is the generator. All of the Magnum Energy and Midnite stuff has been ordered (2 weeks until delivery), I'm waiting for a shipping quote on the PV array, and the batteries are being tested at the dealer (he wanted to do a draw down before selling them to me).

[TimoneX]

Sounds like you did your homework. I don't think there's enough sun here in South Central MI to justify the expense, but I go over it in my pea pod sized brain routinely. Panels get more efficient and tracking systems get better. Perhaps I just need inspiration...like pictures. ;p

[Fullpower]

I am very interested in your PV module mounting scheme;
What materials will you use, orientation, fastening method, etc.
It sounds like you are off to a good start.
One bit of advice:
1000 Amp Hours of battery will need substantial amperage to charge properly.
80 Amps minimum, and 130 Amps would be better. PV is real cheap right now, consider buying MORE panels.

[Nero]

Don't you need a Trimetric 2025 to finish off your installation?
$152 delivered at panther rv

Handy bob's solar primer is really good

http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/t...ging-puzzle-2/

[<SLV>]

Don't you need a Trimetric 2025 to finish off your installation?
$152 delivered at panther rv

Handy bob's solar primer is really good

http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/t...ging-puzzle-2/

I'm getting a Magnum Energy battery management meter. All of Magnum's stuff ties together nicely in the remote control that I will have on the wall up stairs. The automatic generator start can be programmed to bring the generator on and off at certain battery charge percentages as well as block of "quite times" and set a warm up period and regular generator "exercise."

[<SLV>]

I forgot to mention these 4/0 battery to inverter cables: http://www.solar-electric.com/49075.html. That adds $100 to the price.

[TimoneX]

Man! A thousand here and a thousand there...and pretty soon yer talking about some real money!

[<SLV>]

Man! A thousand here and a thousand there...and pretty soon yer talking about some real money!

What's freedom worth to you? Of all the things I can spend my money on, freedom is near the top of the list.

I know the "break even" is way out there (like more than 10 years), but who cares, that's not what it is about for me. Besides, Uncle Sam is going to see that you pay for 30% of my system.

[TimoneX]

I'm all about self sufficiency and uncle sam is going to redistribute wealth until there's nothing left to steal regardless of how I feel about it. Rather he give it to freedom loving loners(like me) than dependent lifetime welfare recipients.

For myself I'm just having trouble envisioning getting rid of the electricity lifeline to my home cost effectively. I can see eliminating water and I've already eliminated gas, but electricity is a tough one. Perhaps if we had sunshine 3 days in 7 here. Like I said...need the inspiration. ;p

[TnAndy]

What's freedom worth to you? Of all the things I can spend my money on, freedom is near the top of the list.

I know the "break even" is way out there (like more than 10 years), but who cares, that's not what it is about for me. Besides, Uncle Sam is going to see that you pay for 30% of my system.

Amen !

The mountains of east TN are not the sunniest place on earth ( rain and fog tends to set in right on the mountains here.....hence the name "Smokey" Mountains ).....but 20 days into the reading month, we've bought 102 kw/hrs and produced 560.

Last month we bought 200 and produced 675.

This is from a 6kw system.

[ralleia]

I'm all about self sufficiency and uncle sam is going to redistribute wealth until there's nothing left to steal regardless of how I feel about it. Rather he give it to freedom loving loners(like me) than dependent lifetime welfare recipients.

For myself I'm just having trouble envisioning getting rid of the electricity lifeline to my home cost effectively. I can see eliminating water and I've already eliminated gas, but electricity is a tough one. Perhaps if we had sunshine 3 days in 7 here. Like I said...need the inspiration. ;p

If you message me a location, I'll do a solar energy assessment for you. I'll try to do the wind stuff, too, but I've far more training in the solar bit.

If you can tell me your annual electricity usage (broken out by month) then even better.

I'm in my last two weeks of the semester for this year of engineering school, and my workload is getting thin. So I'm planning my own structure that aren't subject to property tax, solar/wind power generation (wind power generation isn't subject to property tax in Nebraska) and looking for other outlets to keep my geek drive satisfied.

[<SLV>]

I am very interested in your PV module mounting scheme;
What materials will you use, orientation, fastening method, etc.
It sounds like you are off to a good start.
One bit of advice:
1000 Amp Hours of battery will need substantial amperage to charge properly.
80 Amps minimum, and 130 Amps would be better. PV is real cheap right now, consider buying MORE panels.

Maybe I should only buy half of the batteries (that's what he recommended). Since they were so cheap I thought more would be better.

The mount frame will be steel. I'm going to be running two strings of three panels -- one string over the other, portrait orientation. My thinking right now is that I will put them on the roof of my chicken coop (currently a goat shed that will soon be re-purposed). Three will fit completely on the roof, but the bottom three will hang off (on the frame, of course). I'm planning on making a pivot rod at the roof's edge (only 4 feet off the ground) so I can tip them up in the winter, and a pivot in the frame at the roofs crest for tipping them back in the summer (kind of a frame within a frame). Because I'm at @ 45N latitude my optimal summer angle is 30 and winter is 60. I'm going to put the combiner box in the chicken coop.

The chicken coop will be across the driveway from the house (about 30 feet), and I'm planning on ranging the chickens in what will be a fenced vineyard. I think they will help keep the weeds and bugs under control.

I need to get some pictures. Maybe tomorrow I'll post some photos of the current status of my homestead.

[hoarder]

I wouldn't pass up a battery bargain (if it really is). One option is to configure the battery banks so you can isolate half of them when you equalize. It's not much of an inconvenience since you only do that twice a year. That's what I do.

[Unclad Lad]

Get the batteries now, because you might not be able to get them later.

I know the "break even" is way out there (like more than 10 years)

Don't worry about the break even when the break down is coming.

[<SLV>]

Get the batteries now, because you might not be able to get them later.



Don't worry about the break even when the break down is coming.

Yeah, and I think HT told me it was going to be 2003. I won't live my life waiting for a disaster any moment -- it just isn't healthy. I'm fully confident in our ability to live without electricity; it is just a convenience.

[hoarder]

Off grid, new construction, break even point for the do-it-yourselfer can be as soon as 4 years. My 750 watt system cost about $5500 ( panels were $5 a watt when I bought). Based on $100 a month electric bills, it would have broke even in about 4 1/2 years. If you count rural grid hookup costs it might break even the day you start.

[<SLV>]

As promised, here are some pictures of the status of the place. Today I put in 500 feet of fence post (half of what is necessary) to fence in the permanent goat pasture. We've kept the goats in "temporary" electric fencing since we moved here in 2009 -- not ideal with goats.

The garage slab was poured a couple weeks ago, and I got sill plate on it this week. The garage was free on Craigslist -- I just had to go get it and move it to our property (30 miles). My wife's uncle is in the house moving business, so it wasn't too terribly hard. I've had it for 2 years, so it will be nice to have it installed in the next couple weeks. Once the garage is finished I'll have a place to store materials and tools. Also I'll be able to finish the pasture fence and get the goats moved.

The next project will be replacing the roof on the house (a 100+ year old granary). The tin will have to come off as well as all of the wooden shakes. Then the rafter ends and eaves need to be repaired, new OSB sheeting, then new standing seam steel.

A special thanks to MadFranks (GIM 1.0) who made the blueprints for me.

[<SLV>]

Our goal is to be moved in by Labor Day this year. I know it might seem ambitious, but we got here 3 years ago and have been living with my wife's parents ever since (across the road from where we're building). I am grateful for their hospitality, but this has to end soon for everyone's sanity.

Things have gone a lot slower than I anticipated. When Pincher Processing (my penny business) closed at the end of 2006 we knew that we were going to have to start over. That is when we started planning this homestead. We saved every little bit we could (in the form of gold and silver, of course), and in early 2009 we paid $10,000 cash for our 5.226 acre parcel -- a piece of my wife's family's 500 acre farm in Western Wisconsin).

I was hoping that when we moved here in May of 2009 things would start looking up for us, but instead, things got harder and stayed that way for the next 18 months. The income that I thought we would have vanished, and I couldn't get a job doing anything. I was either over-qualified, or my education/experience were in the wrong field. Also, they wouldn't grant us a building permit because the farm was enrolled in the "Farmland Preservation Act". I had to pay back the last 10 years of tax credits on my parcel and wait 9 months for them to process the paperwork.

Last summer we finally made progress. We ended the summer with a completed basement, and that was an accomplishment that seemed impossible at times. The granary had been raised moved back 30 feet and set up in the air on beams. I dug out the pit underneath it, but we had the rainiest summer on record in 2010, and I spent the entire summer pumping water out of the pit. I will NEVER again dig my own basement foundation.

We are finally making large strides forward. I think we have the finances to get the job done, but it is just a matter of bringing all of the parts together and finding time to build while working full-time.

[ralleia]

Cool setup, SLV. You are getting ready to live the dream. Do you think that there's anything that you or your honey will miss in the rat race? That is, I'm assuming this is all preparation for leaving the rat race?

[ttazzman]

I remember those blueprints from Gim1.........great to see you carrying the project through to completion...congrats

[<SLV>]

Cool setup, SLV. You are getting ready to live the dream. Do you think that there's anything that you or your honey will miss in the rat race? That is, I'm assuming this is all preparation for leaving the rat race?

You bring up a very big philosophical question. I've read all of Robert Kyosaki's books, and I bought the Cashflow board game. I played Cashflow many times before I figured out that Kyosaki wanted to demonstrate that those who leave the "rat race" (employment dependency) most quickly do so by investing in income generating assets (primarily real estate). That is, he believed that the path to financial independence was not most effectively reached through debt elimination. Those who tried to reduce expenses through debt elimination escaped the rat race more slowly than those who invested in income generating assets (that is the way the board game was set up to work).

Culturally accepted norms dictate that "the more you have the less you need." However, I don't see this to be true. Those who have more constantly need more. The other way of looking at this is "the less you need, the more you have," and my favorite, "He who needs nothing, has everything."

Is it possible to live "money free"? I remember years ago reading an article linked to GIM written by a man who tried just that with some of his friends. They paid cash for a parcel of land and built cabins from the timber on the property. Ultimately, the thing that got them was property tax -- there was no way to take care of property tax without money. Also, it was a HARD life.

There has to be a balance. It is so contrary to our culture, but we must tell ourselves when "enough is enough" and hold ourselves to our commitment. Our goal is to live on as little as necessary. I crave "utility-free" living, but not even that is possible because in the end we will have about a $100/mo. mobile phone bill (including data access for the laptop). Then, besides property tax, we will still have all of our insurances.

Our house was designed to be "just enough." My wife and I and our 4 daughters will live in a 2/1 house that is only 800 square feet plus a basement. That's OK. (After the last 3 years in my inlaws house it will feel BIG).

The idea of subsistence farming is romantic, but exhausting. I think a lot of the hermit ideal presented on GIM is misguided. Everyone here seems intent on hunkering down with their preps and shooting all trespassers on sight. What kind of a life is that?

In "The Fourth Turning" the authors advocate for an integrated approach to surviving societal collapse. They recommend becoming an INDESPENSABLE part of the community, then the community will have an incentive to cover your back and step in to make sure you make it through. Like I said on GIM 1.0, "The man with a thousand friends will never starve."

As of a couple months ago we finished paying off the last of our debt from Pincher Processing. It was the last of ANY of our debt -- we were debt free. Last month we took out a line of credit on our land for $23,500 to finish building our house. We wanted to do the entire thing debt free, but I'm making $12/hour, and with a wife and 4 kids to support there wasn't much left over for building a house. $9,000 for the solar setup is by far our largest expense. I wanted to get that wrapped up so I knew how much I could budget to the rest of the project. It is going to be close, but I think we can get there from here.

So I've got about $15,000 left to work with, and what you see in the pictures above has to turn into a finished house by the end of the summer. The Kitchen Queen is $2,800 (or so), the septic will be $4,200, insulation $2,000, etc. I already have my siding ($200 on Craigslist because it was hail-damaged), my plumbing fixtures, electrical wire, garage door, lighting fixtures, etc. The interior plumbing is supposed to be done by a licensed plumber, but I'm going to try to find someone who will let me do most of it and sign off on it.

In the end, we will owe about $20,000 for an off-grid house on 5 acres in rural Wisconsin that will probably be worth $150,000 (big guess). Living the dream? I guess to a degree. Once it is paid for it will be nice to know we have it for life. We might not even live there very long for now. We might move on to some other state and keep it as a vacation cabin, but in the end it is where we want to retire. This is why I moved here from Colorado -- to build this place and own a piece of planet Earth that we can always return to when we need to. After losing everything several years ago it is a comforting thought and my mission right now in life.

[Cigarlover]

Now that you have posted some photos I do remember this when you were first talking about it. Looks like its coming together nicely. Good job..

I really think you have the right idea and I agree you really cant live without money completely. The big question is how much do you really need? Property taxes, registration and liceneses, utilities. All things I dont think you can get away from and have any sense of a normal existence.
Subsistence farming? Maybe as a community farm or something but for 1 person to do it all? Forget it.. Not saying it cant be done and I know if push comes to shove I can do it but until TSHTF I am buying whatever I can and expanding food production yearly.. By expanding a little at a time it gives me confidence in my production capabilities as well. Then of course on top of producing the food you have to process it and store it. It really is a lot of work for 1 person. Maybe a large family could do it.

What I have been doing rather than pushing my views on the neighbors is sharing a little bit every year.. They love the fresh produce and things I make like pickles and salsa and now they are doing a little bit for themselves as well. I figure if TS does HTF then at least they have a little confidence and can at least help out when I need it, especially when canning..

The last thing is I dont really think things will get as bad as many predict. In areas it will be worse than in other areas but overall whatever breakdown we have in society will be short lived. I'm guessing a total breakdown of less than a year and then depression like standards for awhile after that. Things will be available to those who have things to trade and or cash. Food production is not going to come to a halt in this country though.

Anyway, best of luck to you. Hope you meet your goals of finishing on time. I know it cant be fun living with the in laws .

[<SLV>]

I got my battery installed this morning. It is actually made up of two 6-cell 12v Deka industrial batteries (gel) strung together in a 24v series. I paid $900 for these used batteries from the regional Deka distributor. He had 4 of these 12v strings, and I was thinking about running all 4 of them on a 24v parallel set up, but a couple of the cells tested weak on a draw down. He thought that they might perk up with a few cyclings, but to be safe he sold me the strongest 12 cells and we swapped them into these cases.

Something I'm confused about is the label which says that they must be ventilated. I thought this was an advantage of gel -- no ventilation required?

[hoarder]

No fan needed, just make a plywood box surrounding the bank and put a 1" PVC pipe in the top, routed out the roof or wall to outside. I assume gel batteries outgas upwards (lighter than air) like regular lead acid batteries do.

[<SLV>]

No fan needed, just make a plywood box surrounding the bank and put a 1" PVC pipe in the top, routed out the roof or wall to outside. I assume gel batteries outgas upwards (lighter than air) like regular lead acid batteries do.

There's a couple issues, the first being that the steel box is built to allow passive cooling around every pair of cells. Boxing them in would prevent cooling. The other is that they do not off gas unless they are overcharged to the point of boiling, then the white caps on top of the cells pop open to release the gas. In other words, they shouldn't off-gas at all if everything is set up correctly.

[hoarder]

There's a couple issues, the first being that the steel box is built to allow passive cooling around every pair of cells. Boxing them in would prevent cooling. The other is that they do not off gas unless they are overcharged to the point of boiling, then the white caps on top of the cells pop open to release the gas. In other words, they shouldn't off-gas at all if everything is set up correctly.

That's very different from lead-acid batteries.

[<SLV>]

I hung the Magnum 4000w 24v inverter tonight along with the DC breaker box. Magnums set up with back panel fits together really slick. I haven't connected anything yet. I'm probably going to get the house wired before I actually connect all of the solar equipment.

[<SLV>]

We also got our Kitchen Queen 380 wood cook stove. My wife is really excited about trying it out this winter! This was an important part of making off-grid solar feasible for us.

[ttazzman]

looking great so far thx for the update......whats the stove setting on floor wise (stone?)

[<SLV>]

looking great so far thx for the update......whats the stove setting on floor wise (stone?)

The stove is on a marble slab. It was a bathroom divider at a local college, and I picked it up for $50 on Craigslist. There are a few small scratches and a couple holes in it, but it meets code and the price was right.

... and, yes, the box in the lower left of the picture says "Del-Ton." Be very afraid...

[<SLV>]

Here's a recent shot of the homestead. The garage is on the slab and being sided, the house has been completely sided also (with a new steel roof). This picture doesn't show it, but I've got the 1.5 acres behind the garage fenced in and the goats moved. I don't think we'll make my deadline of Labor Day, but Thanksgiving should be a possibility.

[newmisty]

Here's a recent shot of the homestead. The garage is on the slab and being sided, the house has been completely sided also (with a new steel roof). This picture doesn't show it, but I've got the 1.5 acres behind the garage fenced in and the goats moved. I don't think we'll make my deadline of Labor Day, but Thanksgiving should be a possibility.

Looking good man. That stove is bad ass...where did you get it? A local shop?

[<SLV>]

Looking good man. That stove is bad ass...where did you get it? A local shop?

I got it through Obadiah's. The Kitchen Queen is made to order (we waited about 6 months), and it is the only truly practical wood cook stove for full-time use. Costs and arm and a leg, though.

[newmisty]

I imagine it was a pretty penny. I'd be very interested in hearing your trials and errors once you get it fired up. Perhaps you could create a thread about it. I think that would be great.

[searcher]

Good luck with your project.

[<SLV>]

With shipping the stove was $2760. I also got the additional summer grate, but I did not get the water tanks or coil. Ours is the smaller model, also.

[<SLV>]

Here's a recent shot of the homestead. The garage is on the slab and being sided, the house has been completely sided also (with a new steel roof). This picture doesn't show it, but I've got the 1.5 acres behind the garage fenced in and the goats moved. I don't think we'll make my deadline of Labor Day, but Thanksgiving should be a possibility.

Here's an early picture for comparison. This is right after I tore off the collapsed lean-to on the right side along with the steel siding, and before we picked it up and rolled it back 30 feet. We've come a long way, Baby!

[TnAndy]

Yes, you have come a long way.

[Hystckndle]

Fantastic ! Progress that is SLV !

[<SLV>]

The house and the garage are completely wired (rough) except for the feeder line to the garage. As soon as that line is installed (next week) I can have the garage inspected (it is on a separate permit) then I can hang insulation and dry wall. I have ordered the steel for my solar panel frames, and I plan on starting to build it this week (I'm stringing 2 banks of 3 Trina 230w panels tied to a Midnite Solar Classic controller). I want to flip the switch on my solar set up ASAP so I can stop running the generator so much and keep my batteries topped off.

We aren't going to get moved in this year. Things cost more than anticipated, and the money isn't there for the plumbing (well / septic). The stupid UDC code forces me to buy all sorts of things I don't need/want. For instance, I was required to install 7 20A GFCI "tamper resistant" outlets. Retail price on these is about $21 each! I got them on E-bay for $12. In fact, the code requires ALL of the outlets in the house to be "tamper resistant". All sorts of little picky things like that keep pushing the price higher. A dollar here, and a dollar there.

I'm doing some research on indoor LP tankless water heaters. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know. I'm leaning heavily toward the Rheem 64-DVP. We don't need a big one, but it has to have a power vent for horizontal venting.

I used some of the old steel from the outside north wall of the granary to line the wall around the wood stove. We'll probably paint the kitchen a light grey to coordinate with it, and it will be trimmed out with some barn wood.

[searcher]

SLV............looking good!!!

[hoarder]

I'm doing some research on indoor LP tankless water heaters. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know. I'm leaning heavily toward the Rheem 64-DVP. We don't need a big one, but it has to have a power vent for horizontal venting.

Do not use a tankless water heater if:

You have less than 40 PSI water pressure.
You have hard water.

There will be a pressure drop across the heater of about 5 PSI. Best to install water heaters where you can run the vent directly up without any bends.

[minimus]

What's freedom worth to you? Of all the things I can spend my money on, freedom is near the top of the list.

I know the "break even" is way out there (like more than 10 years), but who cares, that's not what it is about for me. Besides, Uncle Sam is going to see that you pay for 30% of my system.

Yeah, I'm trying to learn to do without air conditioning too ...

[TnAndy]

Along with what Hoarder said:

My neighbor runs the QC section of American Water Heater in local factory, and says tankless heaters don't save a lick over GOOD tank models in terms of gas used. They only save floor space. He's done enough testing that I took his word for it on replacing my LP water heater. Also, an electric surge is quite expensive on them due the the computer controls.

You don't need a powered vent on an LP heater IF you can locate the heater on an outside wall.....buy a direct vent ( it sucks the combustion air in, and vents the exhaust out the same double wall pipe ). You can turn one 90 degree turn on them and vent it out a wall, as long as it's within a couple feet of the exterior wall. Mine is that type....more expensive than a regular UP type vent, but a lot less than a powered vent model.

Food for thought.


As for things costing more than you anticipated, welcome to the world of home owner building....it ALWAYS does ! But things are looking a LOT better than what you started with !

[<SLV>]

You don't need a powered vent on an LP heater IF you can locate the heater on an outside wall.....buy a direct vent ( it sucks the combustion air in, and vents the exhaust out the same double wall pipe ). You can turn one 90 degree turn on them and vent it out a wall, as long as it's within a couple feet of the exterior wall. Mine is that type....more expensive than a regular UP type vent, but a lot less than a powered vent model.

I just searched energystar.gov, and they don't list any direct vent storage type water heaters that aren't powered. Can you recommend a brand? Which did you choose?

[minimus]

Here's a few ideas for ya' .... Just tie in a regular LP HWT tank to your wood stove ..... great place you're building !

[ttazzman]

nice drawing............solar side of any hot water heater setup in a cold climate where SLV lives should either be a glycol heat exchanger system .....or a drain back system.........a thermal siphon system like you show will work in warm(non-freezing) climates but not where SLV is, of course a drain back system requires the collector to be above the tank