A study conducted to prove the obvious

[Al K. Hall]

The Oregon Health Insurance Experiment: Evidence from the First Year

http://qje.oxfordjournals.org/conten...js020.abstract


Short abstract from Science magazine:

Insuring Greater Health

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6087/1362.2.full


The thrust: health insurance increases preventative care (avoiding much greater costs later) and increases quality of life. I don't need a gaggle of Ph.D.s to tell you that!

Now, how to fund it? Perhaps the elimination of executive salaries and "shareholder value"? More taxes is not the answer. We've got to stop the parasites ingesting the insurance premiums, co-pays, and shares of cost and giving us stool in return. That's the business model of both Obamacare and Romneycare.

Of course, an alternative could be the Paul Ryan "plan": die, so we can have more in the bank. But I don't think most Americans are that monstrous.

[TimoneX]

How about we get goobermint out of the patient doctor relationship and pass meaningful tort reform so that healthcare costs can go back to where they used to be and should be currently. Then people can decide for themselves whether they want preventative maintenance healthcare insurance or wish to pay out of pocket.

Yeah a whole bunch of insurance paper pushers and a whole bunch of ambulance chasing lawyers will have to find meaningful employment, but too bad. There's always trade school.

[Al K. Hall]

How about we get goobermint out of the patient doctor relationship and pass meaningful tort reform so that healthcare costs can go back to where they used to be and should be currently. Then people can decide for themselves whether they want preventative maintenance healthcare insurance or wish to pay out of pocket.

Yeah a whole bunch of insurance paper pushers and a whole bunch of ambulance chasing lawyers will have to find meaningful employment, but too bad. There's always trade school.

Single-payer, end of story. National Cooperative, State Cooperatives, restructuring of Medicare (currently-paid insurance premiums replacing FICA contributions), another form, it does not matter. If someone does not wish to participate in general care they contribute to, that's fine too, because bare-bones catastrophic emergency care can easily be funded with the massive additional funding naturally available from eliminating the overhead of the current system. Not a single penny of additional taxes is needed. But only if the parasites are cut off for good.

No more health care corporate "investors," no more multimillionaire executives, no more profits going elsewhere. The lawyers who take their cut from lawsuits against incompetent and reckless doctors are far down the list of problems. The "tort reform" issue is really a red herring. For the professionals spouting it, it's a flat-out lie, and they know it. Paul Ryan's among them.

[Jeremiah_Wrong]

Single-payer, end of story. National Cooperative, State Cooperatives, restructuring of Medicare (currently-paid insurance premiums replacing FICA contributions), another form, it does not matter. If someone does not wish to participate in general care they contribute to, that's fine too, because bare-bones catastrophic emergency care can easily be funded with the massive additional funding naturally available from eliminating the overhead of the current system. Not a single penny of additional taxes is needed. But only if the parasites are cut off for good.

No more health care corporate "investors," no more multimillionaire executives, no more profits going elsewhere. The lawyers who take their cut from lawsuits against incompetent and reckless doctors are far down the list of problems. The "tort reform" issue is really a red herring. For the professionals spouting it, it's a flat-out lie, and they know it. Paul Ryan's among them.

Your solution is to maintain a government run system. It does not work, at least in the long run. The myth is that free market has ruined the American healthcare industry. The truth is, the US does not even have a free market system and hasn't had one in decades. The American system has been semi-socialized thanks to the likes of Medicare and Medicaid, which have driven up the costs atronomically over the last four decades.

A government run system is designed to place more power in the hands of a few and take more freedom away from their citizens. The solution is to get government completely out of the health care industry.

[TimoneX]

Your solution is to maintain a government run system. It does not work, at least in the long run. The myth is that free market has ruined the American healthcare industry. The truth is, the US does not even have a free market system and hasn't had one in decades. The American system has been semi-socialized thanks to the likes of Medicare and Medicaid, which have driven up the costs atronomically over the last four decades.

A government run system is designed to place more power in the hands of a few and take more freedom away from their citizens. The solution is to get government completely out of the health care industry.

Quoted for truth.

Government does nothing well, healthcare is no exception.

[Jeremiah_Wrong]

"In a 1992 study published by the Hoover Institution, entitled "Input and Output in Health Care", Milton Friedman noted that 56 percent of all hospitals in America were privately owned and for-profit in 1910. After 60 years of subsidies for government-run hospitals, the number had fallen to about 10 percent. It took decades, but by the early 1990s government had taken over almost the entire hospital industry. That small portion of the industry that remains for-profit is regulated in an extraordinarily heavy way by federal, state and local governments so that many (perhaps most) of the decisions made by hospital administrators have to do with regulatory compliance as opposed to patient/customer service in pursuit of profit. It is profit, of course, that is necessary for private-sector hospitals to have the wherewithal to pay for healthcare."

http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Socialized_healthcare

[Al K. Hall]

Your solution is to maintain a government run system.

Simply not true.

"Cooperative" = member-owned entity.

It does not work, at least in the long run.

Keep on running with the Red Herring.

The myth is that free market has ruined the American healthcare industry.

The myth is that everyone who can't afford should simply die. It's an immoral belief in mythology.

The truth is, the US does not even have a free market system and hasn't had one in decades. The American system has been semi-socialized thanks to the likes of Medicare and Medicaid, which have driven up the costs atronomically over the last four decades.

Simply not true. "Socialized"? You meant corporatized, yes?

Costs have been driven ever-higher because corporations and their enablers have made it so that they are entitled to ever-increasing profits at the expense of the taxpayer, the premium payer, and the uninsured.

A government run system is designed to place more power in the hands of a few and take more freedom away from their citizens. The solution is to get government completely out of the health care industry.

The solution is to get profit completely out of the health care industry.

Not a single penny of additional tax is needed for universal coverage. And a whole mountain of pennies could be saved by removing the "investor" from the equation.

I see daily the effects of the current situation. I provide service on ability to pay, and for most, the ability to pay is zilch. I'm not entitled to a new Mercedes every year. I'm not entitled to a 10,000 square-foot home. That sort of entitlement mentality is immoral. Like I commented earlier, I don't think most Americans are so monstrous that "just die" is an acceptable "plan" for the elderly, disabled, and acutely-ill but uninsured. Rapid dismantling of Medicare and Medicaid, as has been proposed by several so-called fiscal "leaders," would have that obvious result.

But perhaps that is the point? More dead = more money in our pockets. Or spent on killing.

[Al K. Hall]

Quoted for truth.

Government does nothing well, healthcare is no exception.

Government has made corporatism the most profitable economic system in the history of our world. The best Congress money can buy. It's not dirty, homeless socialists who tell the government what to do. Direct and pervasive corporate involvement in writing "Obamacare" shows that the real movers & shakers of "the free market" have no problem with what the naive wrongly call "socialized medicine."

[Al K. Hall]

"In a 1992 study published by the Hoover Institution, entitled "Input and Output in Health Care", Milton Friedman noted that 56 percent of all hospitals in America were privately owned and for-profit in 1910. After 60 years of subsidies for government-run hospitals, the number had fallen to about 10 percent. It took decades, but by the early 1990s government had taken over almost the entire hospital industry. That small portion of the industry that remains for-profit is regulated in an extraordinarily heavy way by federal, state and local governments so that many (perhaps most) of the decisions made by hospital administrators have to do with regulatory compliance as opposed to patient/customer service in pursuit of profit. It is profit, of course, that is necessary for private-sector hospitals to have the wherewithal to pay for healthcare."

http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Socialized_healthcare

There you go again. Simply not true.

Most "health care" is conducted by "non-profit" corporations. Not government hospitals and clinics. And when one has an honest look at the financials of these "non-profit" corporations, it's clear to see that, with seven- and eight-figure executive salaries, someone is definitely "profiting."

[TimoneX]

Government has made corporatism the most profitable economic system in the history of our world. The best Congress money can buy. It's not dirty, homeless socialists who tell the government what to do. Direct and pervasive corporate involvement in writing "Obamacare" shows that the real movers & shakers of "the free market" have no problem with what the naive wrongly call "socialized medicine."

Seems we agree. Fascism *IS* the problem.

How is a single payer system with the fascists in charge going to solve anything?

[Jeremiah_Wrong]

There you go again. Simply not true.

Most "health care" is conducted by "non-profit" corporations. Not government hospitals and clinics. And when one has an honest look at the financials of these "non-profit" corporations, it's clear to see that, with seven- and eight-figure executive salaries, someone is definitely "profiting."

Is there a source to back up your claims?

[Al K. Hall]

Seems we agree. Fascism *IS* the problem.

How is a single payer system with the fascists in charge going to solve anything?

A single-payer system without the fascists in charge.

I'm no fan of government. Much of my work is hindered by government, with its insane hoops to be negotiated. I'm willing to use government for proper purposes, but government has so obviously assumed the proverbial change of roles from servant to master.

How will a single-payer system without fascists be realized? Probably the same way restoration of the Bill of Rights will be realized. People will need to finally, after decades of a boot on their neck, say "enough!" and make it so. People already are dying from both lack of freedom and the lack of care. Can the dying be stopped? Perhaps. Or, it will need to be switched to "them" dying instead.

[Al K. Hall]

Is there a source to back up your claims?

A very brief look at the medical centers and primary providers in your area will demonstrate this. Even if you are in a large city, for every government-owned hospital, you'll still find anywhere from 5 to 10 "non-profit" similar facilities.

Within 100 miles radius of my location, there isn't a single government-run hospital. No state university hospitals, no county hospitals. Each and every one of them is a "non-profit" organization. In a shorter radius, 50 miles out, there are no government-run clinics that provide primary care (token, statutorily-mandated mental health crisis units, often called Psychiatric Unit Facilities, or PUFs, don't count - they're really a form of jail). My own medical care is received at a church-owned "non-profit," and describes itself as "faith-based." I'm also privy to some of its financial data that doesn't coincide with the idea of "not for profit." Though in its defense, I've seen them display much more "Christian" attitudes in their dealings with the poor than the much larger, non-faith-based "non-profits" that dominate health care in my area. The leading one's CEO, not an MD nor even a Ph.D., received $2.3 million a year. He's definitely profiting.

[TimoneX]

A single-payer system without the fascists in charge.

I'm no fan of government. Much of my work is hindered by government, with its insane hoops to be negotiated. I'm willing to use government for proper purposes, but government has so obviously assumed the proverbial change of roles from servant to master.

How will a single-payer system without fascists be realized? Probably the same way restoration of the Bill of Rights will be realized. People will need to finally, after decades of a boot on their neck, say "enough!" and make it so. People already are dying from both lack of freedom and the lack of care. Can the dying be stopped? Perhaps. Or, it will need to be switched to "them" dying instead.

This won't happen without a 1776 style solution at this point and if *THAT* happened then a single payer system won't be optimal. Patients would go back to paying reasonable rates for necessary services that doctors and nurses provide. Similar to before the federal regime mucked everything up.