Copper Billion Opinions?

[Mozer!]

Hello everyone,

I'm not sure if there was already a thread about this, couldn't find one when I searched. I've never bought Precious Metals before and was considering buying copper bullion from Provident Metals. Any opinions on this dealer and copper itself?

I was planning on buying a small amount the first time just to get a feel for it. For copper I thought it might be a good idea to buy small denominations like 1/2 ounce rounds, 1 ounce rounds, and 1 ounce bars. They seem cheap now but I'm sure if something were to happen people would be scraping up every last bit of PM they could find.

Thanks everyone!

[bemac]

Copper bullion = bubble activity

Stay away.

Just MHO.

[REO 54]

....read post #31 here.....FWIW
http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthre...ne-Long-Thread

[glockngold]

Copper Billion Opinions?

My opinion is: the best way to to make a million, is to buy a billion of copper bullion.

Seriously, copper "bullion" is a waste of time & money.

As far as no copper threads, well search a little harder. Here's a fun one:
http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthre...silver-prodigy

[Heads_Up]

I collect copper pennies from my change. I keep copper scrap. Copper is a commodity, not a PM.

The pennies I keep because I can inexpensively keep and find. The scrap, when I have an amount, I will trade in to the scrapper and buy silver (I trade silver to gold when the ratio gets better to make it worth my while).

Would I ever buy overpriced copper bullion as an investment, not worth my time.

[Tinbox]

Hello everyone,

I'm not sure if there was already a thread about this, couldn't find one when I searched. I've never bought Precious Metals before and was considering buying copper bullion from Provident Metals. Any opinions on this dealer and copper itself?

I was planning on buying a small amount the first time just to get a feel for it. For copper I thought it might be a good idea to buy small denominations like 1/2 ounce rounds, 1 ounce rounds, and 1 ounce bars. They seem cheap now but I'm sure if something were to happen people would be scraping up every last bit of PM they could find.

Thanks everyone!

I definitely wouldn't buy it retail at a large premium (they may seem cheap but copper is at $3.50 a POUND roughly, so figure out what kind of premium you are paying for those ounce rounds, its probably a huge %).

For people willing to devote the time and have the storage space, sorting pennies should offer a decent return down the line.

[REO 54]

...or this may be useful..

Massachusetts man pays off mortgage with pennies...

MILFORD – A Massachusetts man who pledged to make the last mortgage payment on his home with pennies has fulfilled that promise.

After warning his bank, Thomas Daigle in April dropped off about 62,000 pennies weighing 800 pounds in two boxes for the final payment on the Milford home he and his wife, Sandra, bought in 1977.

He tells The Milford Daily News he just wanted to make his last payment "memorable."

He started saving his pennies when he moved in.

The optician says his wife laughed whenever he would pick up a penny he found on the ground and say it was going to the mortgage.

Daigle says he's just glad to have the coins out of his house.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/06...#ixzz1zrTbZyDV

[PhucilliJerry]

Don't waste your money on the copper bullion. If you want copper go with pennies, you can easily sort them to obtain a few pounds pretty quickly. I don't sort much copper anymore but I was pulling about 30% coppers. If copper crashes, you can still spend them as currency, nothing lost except for sorting time.

Better yet, start out with 90% silver, dimes/quarters/halves/dollars. Usually low premium, and can even still find them in circulation for face cost, check this thread: http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?608-PROSPECTING-for-90-SILVER!!!.

90% melt values here: http://www.coinflation.com/silver_coin_values.html

[ttazzman]

In my opinion buying copper bullion from a Precious Metals dealer is at best a scam..........worse than buying numismatics.......

if you want to invest in copper.......collect pennies....or buy a pile of copper scrap from the scrap yards.......or buy copper pipe or wire......

copper is NOT in any way shape or form a precious metal.......it is a industrial metal and is a great indicator of industrial activity.......so if you think the economy is going to boom and bubble up again then copper might be a good way to go....


just my opinions of course

[Fiat Metaler]

its not a scam but a speculation on the melt ban being lifted.

go over to real cent.com - if you are patient, you can buy $100 FV at 1.3X shipped.

if you buy at 1.3, melt is about 2.0, figure when the melt ban is lifted you get 85% of melt. problem is they are bulky, heavy, illiquid, and the copper is likely to appreciate slower than gold and silver.

[HistoryStudent]

In my opinion buying copper bullion from a Precious Metals dealer is at best a scam..........worse than buying numismatics.......

if you want to invest in copper.......collect pennies....or buy a pile of copper scrap from the scrap yards.......or buy copper pipe or wire......

copper is NOT in any way shape or form a precious metal.......it is a industrial metal and is a great indicator of industrial activity.......so if you think the economy is going to boom and bubble up again then copper might be a good way to go....


just my opinions of course

The Constitution back in 1792 said...

GOLD

SILVER

COPPER

but TPTB (banksters) buried that WITH Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, and JFK.

[TiKi]

Words copper and Precious Metal should not go together in the same sentence.

[southfork]

Only copper i have is my pre 82 pennies and a 50 foot roll of 5/8 refrigeration tubing I snagged at flea market for 4 bucks a few years back, I too would opt for sorting pre 82 pennies, the copper coins have too much preiums and it will take you a decade to break even on melt prices alone. JMHO

[andial]

I have a copper stash. But I amassed it from doing bathroom renovations over the years. Whenever I do a bathroom renovation I remove all the old "dangerous" copper feed and replace with new and on some houses all the old "dangerous" copper waste pipes and replace with kinder gentler PVC pipe. You can never be too safe!

[Rollie Free]

Specific to copper bullion, I would go ahead and label it a scam. It is way above market price. You'd never make anything of it. It's a pretended, nothing more.

[curmudgeonista]

Pretty much what everyone else has said... except here is the place to find info on copper here on GIM if you really want to pursue it... Base Metals (not Precious Metals):

http://www.goldismoney2.com/forumdis...27-Base-Metals

Aside from the ridiculous premiums on "copper bullion" and the time involved in sorting pennies, copper presents another obstacle, especially for the typical 20 year-old. It's storage. Any worthwhile amount of copper, dollar-wise, is going to take up a lot of room and be heavy, heavy. heavy when it comes time to move (unless, of course, you are keeping it in a high-tech storage facility like the celebrities do ).

I must have moved 7 or 8 times from the age of 20 to 10 years later when I settled down, got married and bought a house. And we're in our third location since. Do yourself a favor and buy silver, gold when you can.

[Dude]

Copper is $6,800 a ton (2,000 lbs). Shipping and storage is a killer...and my bad back hurts just thinking about it. So stop. Please, stop...and do the math.

[Fiat Metaler]

The Constitution back in 1792 said...

GOLD

SILVER

COPPER

Article I Section 10 mentions gold and silver, but not copper. copper is not mentioned in the Constitution.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/cha...ranscript.html

[Fiat Metaler]

Specific to copper bullion, I would go ahead and label it a scam. It is way above market price. You'd never make anything of it. It's a pretended, nothing more.

copper cents have 2.25 cents worth of copper in them. its inevitable that the u.s. discontinues the penny - i believe Canada just approved this. when the u.s. does this, then they likely will lift the melt ban. once you can melt the pennies, refiners likely will pay you 85% of melt. so even if copper doesn't rise, you should net 1.9 cents per coin, yet you can buy these from sorters for 1.3 cents per coin over at real cent. its just a speculation, and a lot of folks sort cents and get the coppers for free (not counting their labor). Its one thing to say not to buy cents from a coin shop because they are overpriced, but i think you are wrong to say they will never be worth anything. in fact, i would be surprised if the melt ban is not lifted within 5 years.

[ErrosionOfAccord]

If tshtf there will be plenty of copper to rip out of abandoned houses and power poles.

[Gcubed]

When was the last time anyone here paid for even a $20 purchase in copper pennies?

[Fiat Metaler]

When was the last time anyone here paid for even a $20 purchase in copper pennies?

i have spent zincs, but only a fool would spend the coppers since 1982.

but anyway whether you can spend them is irrelevant. when was the last time you bought anything with gold or silver?

there are folks who will trade their silver or gold for sorted copper. i sold some copper today for FRNs.

[Gcubed]

You counted out 2000 pieces of zinc to someone in order to complete a transaction? You MUST be pulling my leg!!

As for spending gold or silver, paid my dentist recently with gold. Didn't want to insult him with pennies.

[TomD]

I have a copper stash. But I amassed it from doing bathroom renovations over the years. Whenever I do a bathroom renovation I remove all the old "dangerous" copper feed and replace with new and on some houses all the old "dangerous" copper waste pipes and replace with kinder gentler PVC pipe. You can never be too safe!

I remember walking into the office of a fairly large plumbing co sometime in the 1990's. In front of their shop building in the back was a 20 cubic yard construction roll-off dumpster literally mounded over with "scrap" copper. Back then when copper was far less than $1/lb, they used the proceeds to finance the annual company picnic. Now they could use the money to buy all of their plumbers new cars every year.

[Dude]

i have spent zincs, but only a fool would spend the coppers since 1982.

but anyway whether you can spend them is irrelevant. when was the last time you bought anything with gold or silver?

there are folks who will trade their silver or gold for sorted copper. i sold some copper today for FRNs.

Let's say you could go through 30 a minute, which I consider the high side.
Say 25% are copper, which is also on the high side.
You are losing a one cent of frn, getting 2.25 value of copper, a net of 1.25.
Calculate it out and you are getting $5.63 an hour, if you can find a buyer at the full value of the copper.
Obviously no payroll taxes and no taxes on resale if you don't report it.
Now if you are just sitting behind a cash register waiting on customers with time in between, take a shot.
Back when I was working retail, I never ran through the silver, although tempted. I should have gone to the bank back in the 70's, where 1 silver quarter got you 50 cents net.

And as far as buying something with gold or silver, you reminded me of a guy that walked into a coin shop while I was browsing.
Hey Jake, how much you paying for silver eagles? I need cash for another purchase.
Sell $2 above, buy at spot.
The guy pulls out two roll, puts 3 of the coins in his pocket and gets cash for the rest.

[andial]

My kids used to sort out the copper pennies, nickels, other odd change for me back when they were young and innocent. Then they got older and most of that sorted change has gone missing, or has shrunk.

[Mozer!]

Wow,

There's clearly a wide variety of opinions on the value of copper here. I suppose I can summarize by stating copper bullion (not billion), would be okay if the premiums weren't so high (I calculated a 600% premium from Provident Metals). Guess I'll be sorting though to find pre-82' pennies for copper.

Thanks again everyone!

[Dude]

Wow,

There's clearly a wide variety of opinions on the value of copper here. I suppose I can summarize by stating copper bullion (not billion), would be okay if the premiums weren't so high (I calculated a 600% premium from Provident Metals). Guess I'll be sorting though to find pre-82' pennies for copper.

Thanks again everyone!

I don't think there is a wide variety of opinions. The price is what it is. Scrap copper is nearly free in many cases. Pulling out pennies is below minimum wage. You're better off getting a part time job. Plant a garden.

[Fiat Metaler]

Let's say you could go through 30 a minute, which I consider the high side.
Say 25% are copper, which is also on the high side.
You are losing a one cent of frn, getting 2.25 value of copper, a net of 1.25.
Calculate it out and you are getting $5.63 an hour, if you can find a buyer at the full value of the copper.
Obviously no payroll taxes and no taxes on resale if you don't report it.
Now if you are just sitting behind a cash register waiting on customers with time in between, take a shot.
Back when I was working retail, I never ran through the silver, although tempted. I should have gone to the bank back in the 70's, where 1 silver quarter got you 50 cents net.

And as far as buying something with gold or silver, you reminded me of a guy that walked into a coin shop while I was browsing.
Hey Jake, how much you paying for silver eagles? I need cash for another purchase.
Sell $2 above, buy at spot.
The guy pulls out two roll, puts 3 of the coins in his pocket and gets cash for the rest.

you are assuming that I am sorting by hand, which i am not.

most of my copper i bought from others who sort. some are retired and do it for fun. others have ryedale sorting machines. regardless, i bought mine at 1.3 times face value and traded for silver at 1.75 times face value. I assure you i value my time highly and the transaction was very accretive to me.

when i did sort, i would use a high speed counting machine, count out bags of $50 FV zinc, and deposit these at my bank and then withdraw FRNs which i would use to buy silver. Not pulling anybody's leg.

what you don't address is the logic of the speculation. the melt value of these cents is 2.25 each. you can buy them all day for 1.6 times face at the Portland Mint, or if you are patient from other sorters at 1.3x face. As i mentioned before, i think its a reasonable speculation to expect that the penny will be discontinued within 5 years - already McDonalds and Walmart will round to the nearest nickle for me - and after the demonetization it follows that the melt ban will be lifted. If you give these to a refiner to melt, you would expect to receive 85 of melt, or 1.9 cents. so the speculation is that you will capture an approximate 50% gain in less than 5 years time while being out of FRNs and in a real asset.

is it worth it to sort cents - well, that depends on the value of your time and your access to cents. but there are folks on realcent who are going to clean up in a few years. there are also hedge funds and other big fish getting into this, signing contracts with coinstar.

another thing - most of the folks who do this are collectors. they do it because it allows them to justify processing a ton of coins, and they find indian heads, 1909 VDB's, etc. For common date wheats, they get about 4X face, and more for older wheats up to about a buck for indian head cents. and yes, they do pull these rare coins. to them, sorting is an enjoyable past time, like fishing (which no fisherman justifies based on the market price of trout). But again, if you are buying bullion, there is no reason to sort because you can buy u.s. govt minted one-tenth troy ounce rounds, 95% pure copper, for 1.3 times face value from other collectors.


P.S. just because you don't understand something doesn't mean the other person is wrong.

[Fiat Metaler]

Wow,

There's clearly a wide variety of opinions on the value of copper here. I suppose I can summarize by stating copper bullion (not billion), would be okay if the premiums weren't so high (I calculated a 600% premium from Provident Metals). Guess I'll be sorting though to find pre-82' pennies for copper.

Thanks again everyone!

Here are some at 1.5X; you can find them for 1.3X on Realcent.com from time to time.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-FV-95-CO...item3cc8759b47

[Fiat Metaler]

here is a video of a ryedale coin sorter. it sorts about 18,000 cents in an hour.

http://<iframe width="420" height="3...reen></iframe>

[edsl48]

Go to your local big box home improvement store and buy rolls of 12-2 romex. It closely follows the price of copper and the stores here give a 90 day return priveledge. If copper goes down take it back to the store with your receipt and get full price. If copper goes up, keep it

[Dude]

i have spent zincs, but only a fool would spend the coppers since 1982.

but anyway whether you can spend them is irrelevant. when was the last time you bought anything with gold or silver?

there are folks who will trade their silver or gold for sorted copper. i sold some copper today for FRNs.

you are assuming that I am sorting by hand, which i am not.

most of my copper i bought from others who sort. some are retired and do it for fun. others have ryedale sorting machines. regardless, i bought mine at 1.3 times face value and traded for silver at 1.75 times face value. I assure you i value my time highly and the transaction was very accretive to me.

when i did sort, i would use a high speed counting machine, count out bags of $50 FV zinc, and deposit these at my bank and then withdraw FRNs which i would use to buy silver. Not pulling anybody's leg.

what you don't address is the logic of the speculation. the melt value of these cents is 2.25 each. you can buy them all day for 1.6 times face at the Portland Mint, or if you are patient from other sorters at 1.3x face. As i mentioned before, i think its a reasonable speculation to expect that the penny will be discontinued within 5 years - already McDonalds and Walmart will round to the nearest nickle for me - and after the demonetization it follows that the melt ban will be lifted. If you give these to a refiner to melt, you would expect to receive 85 of melt, or 1.9 cents. so the speculation is that you will capture an approximate 50% gain in less than 5 years time while being out of FRNs and in a real asset.

is it worth it to sort cents - well, that depends on the value of your time and your access to cents. but there are folks on realcent who are going to clean up in a few years. there are also hedge funds and other big fish getting into this, signing contracts with coinstar.

another thing - most of the folks who do this are collectors. they do it because it allows them to justify processing a ton of coins, and they find indian heads, 1909 VDB's, etc. For common date wheats, they get about 4X face, and more for older wheats up to about a buck for indian head cents. and yes, they do pull these rare coins. to them, sorting is an enjoyable past time, like fishing (which no fisherman justifies based on the market price of trout). But again, if you are buying bullion, there is no reason to sort because you can buy u.s. govt minted one-tenth troy ounce rounds, 95% pure copper, for 1.3 times face value from other collectors.


P.S. just because you don't understand something doesn't mean the other person is wrong.

You said only a fool would spend the coppers. So I presumed you did not call yourself a fool and dig through your change manually.
I'm fully aware of the Rydale units and based on my calculations, did not want to try and find supplies of pennies to make that pay.
Indian heads, wheats, and even the 09vdb are not rare coins (09svdb, yes), but to be found in circulation, they are rare, IMO. I have not found Jack, but of course do not sit around all day searching. The 60's and 70's were much more fruitful.
Now, buying for 1.3x face, I can see that. If someone plunked 4000 rolls on the table, I'd give them $2600. That's a lot of work for $600.

[Fiat Metaler]

You said only a fool would spend the coppers. So I presumed you did not call yourself a fool and dig through your change manually.
I'm fully aware of the Rydale units and based on my calculations, did not want to try and find supplies of pennies to make that pay.
Indian heads, wheats, and even the 09vdb are not rare coins (09svdb, yes), but to be found in circulation, they are rare, IMO. I have not found Jack, but of course do not sit around all day searching. The 60's and 70's were much more fruitful.
Now, buying for 1.3x face, I can see that. If someone plunked 4000 rolls on the table, I'd give them $2600. That's a lot of work for $600.

the hard part about sorting is not sourcing cents, its returning the zincs (called a dump bank).

wheats are surprisingly plentiful but they are mostly 1940s and 1950s. There are folks on Real cents who have pulled multiple $50 FV bags of wheats. Its just a matter of numbers, and once you have a pile of only copper cents the wheats really stand out. Indians are more rare, but they probably find one on average in every 500,000 coins, although there are some folks who will find a dozen in that number and others who find none. and yes people have found 1909 s - vdb, and the rare 1914.

as for buying copper at 1.3x, it can be done and i acquired over 400,000 at 1.3X or less DELIVERED. Delivery used to be 9.95 per $100 FV (68 lbs in a usps flat rate box). Think its 10.95 these days. When silver broke 28, i traded all my copper for silver at well above 1.3x. But i got a sore back for my effort, lol. I do think copper holders will profit when the melt ban is lifted, but i think silver will do even better during that time frame and is more liquid as well.
Right now copper is not liquid but will be when the melt ban is lifted. For example, Canadian cents in the u.s. can be melted and go for 90+% of melt.

yes, you can buy copper pipe, but why do that when it sells at a premium to melt and when, in contrast, you can buy one-tenth troy oz copper rounds, minted by the US Mint, .950 pure copper, at a 42% discount to melt.

[Dude]

the hard part about sorting is not sourcing cents, its returning the zincs (called a dump bank).

wheats are surprisingly plentiful but they are mostly 1940s and 1950s. There are folks on Real cents who have pulled multiple $50 FV bags of wheats. Its just a matter of numbers, and once you have a pile of only copper cents the wheats really stand out. Indians are more rare, but they probably find one on average in every 500,000 coins, although there are some folks who will find a dozen in that number and others who find none. and yes people have found 1909 s - vdb, and the rare 1914.

as for buying copper at 1.3x, it can be done and i acquired over 400,000 at 1.3X or less DELIVERED. Delivery used to be 9.95 per $100 FV (68 lbs in a usps flat rate box). Think its 10.95 these days. When silver broke 28, i traded all my copper for silver at well above 1.3x. But i got a sore back for my effort, lol. I do think copper holders will profit when the melt ban is lifted, but i think silver will do even better during that time frame and is more liquid as well.
Right now copper is not liquid but will be when the melt ban is lifted. For example, Canadian cents in the u.s. can be melted and go for 90+% of melt.

yes, you can buy copper pipe, but why do that when it sells at a premium to melt and when, in contrast, you can buy one-tenth troy oz copper rounds, minted by the US Mint, .950 pure copper, at a 42% discount to melt.

Like I said, I can see getting 1.3x delivered as a speculation play on a few 100 lbs. 600% bullion premium, no. Retail copper pipe, no. Nearly free copper scrap, yes.
As far as sifting through pennies myself and the added bonus of a few wheats and maybe a coin worth a few bucks, I'd get better use out of my time in other endeavors.
And of course people have made some great finds. If you average the value of the finds over the time spent, it's gotta suck. I quit in 1975.

[Rusty Shackelford]

Does the 600% premium on copper bullion/bars also include the cost of high tech storage???

Mozer might not get it but if he stays and reads enough threads it will.

Just Say NO!

[Mr. Shiny]

... If you give these to a refiner to melt, you would expect to receive 85 of melt, or 1.9 cents.....

Pssst, you would be lucky to get 85% of melt for #1 copper in greater than 100 pound lots, red brass, which your cents are and you seem to believe are worth culling from your change, will get you a 50% discount or a whopping $15 per hundredweight profit at present pricing.
To put it another way, collect beer cans, you'll get three times as much money per hundred.

And just to clarify, those nice copper ingots, bars and coins are considered #1 copper and will sell at the same discount...~85%.

[Fiat Metaler]

Pssst, you would be lucky to get 85% of melt for #1 copper in greater than 100 pound lots, red brass, which your cents are and you seem to believe are worth culling from your change, will get you a 50% discount or a whopping $15 per hundredweight profit at present pricing.
To put it another way, collect beer cans, you'll get three times as much money per hundred.

And just to clarify, those nice copper ingots, bars and coins are considered #1 copper and will sell at the same discount...~85%.

that is a reasonable opinion but its just speculation right now becuase you can't legally melt it. But once the melt ban is lifted, ironically you won't have to melt it. Its sort of like 90% silver - in the 70s they melted it, then they realized they could sell at melt without the work of melting it. Why did this happen? Because the bullion rounds were manufactured by a well known mint - uncle sam. So its also reasonable to expect u.s. mint copper rounds to garner more than No. 1 copper. In fact, canadian cents already do when they are available (legal to melt in the u.s.).

[Heads_Up]

that is a reasonable opinion but its just speculation right now becuase you can't legally melt it. But once the melt ban is lifted, ironically you won't have to melt it. Its sort of like 90% silver - in the 70s they melted it, then they realized they could sell at melt without the work of melting it. Why did this happen? Because the bullion rounds were manufactured by a well known mint - uncle sam. So its also reasonable to expect u.s. mint copper rounds to garner more than No. 1 copper. In fact, canadian cents already do when they are available (legal to melt in the u.s.).

I thought that with free trade, destruction of Canadian currency could be prosecuted in the US?

[Fiat Metaler]

I thought that with free trade, destruction of Canadian currency could be prosecuted in the US?

I think you have your understanding of freedom backwards.

"Free" in free trade means one can import goods for sale into other countries free of tariffs. Thankfully, it doesn't mean that foreign governments have a free hand to prosecute for their crimes in foreign jurisdictions.

[voodoo1951]

I have a copper stash. But I amassed it from doing bathroom renovations over the years. Whenever I do a bathroom renovation I remove all the old "dangerous" copper feed and replace with new and on some houses all the old "dangerous" copper waste pipes and replace with kinder gentler PVC pipe. You can never be too safe!

Andial, were you the contractor I hired about a year ago? I keep wondering why my water tastes like $chmidt...No, definetly NOT Schlitz! LOL

[Deweydog]

Hello everyone,

I'm not sure if there was already a thread about this, couldn't find one when I searched. I've never bought Precious Metals before and was considering buying copper bullion from Provident Metals. Any opinions on this dealer and copper itself?

I was planning on buying a small amount the first time just to get a feel for it. For copper I thought it might be a good idea to buy small denominations like 1/2 ounce rounds, 1 ounce rounds, and 1 ounce bars. They seem cheap now but I'm sure if something were to happen people would be scraping up every last bit of PM they could find.

Thanks everyone!

First of all IMHO, to include copper in the same sentence with "precious metals" is pure sacrilege.

Lots of good comments in this thread. Take your funds, buy silver on dips. Repeat the process.
If the gold silver ratio looks good to you, trade your silver in for what everyone desires, GOLD.

Worse thing to do is nothing, the economic calamity clock is ticking faster everyday.

Gluck...