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Thread: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

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    Default How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    They're selling some if you click on the link. Just thought the info was interesting.


    Tom Cloud: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    by John Rubino on December 20, 2012

    In this weekís talk with National Numismatic Associatesí Tom Cloud, he answers two big questions that confront precious metals buyers: Why are sales of some coins and bars reportable to the IRS and others not? And is it possible to buy and sell precious metals confidentially?

    Dollar Collapse: Hi Tom. So, what are you hearing from clients this week?

    Tom Cloud: A lot of people are asking for British sovereigns, Swiss francs, and Austrian coronas, coins that donít require filing 1099s when you sell them.

    DC: The fact that some coins and bars have to be reported and some donít seems both arbitrary and important in deciding what to buy. Could you give an overview of US precious metals reporting rules and how your clients tend to approach the issue?

    TC: Sure. When they created the Patriot Act [in 2001], the excuse was that the terrorists who blew up the Twin Towers had used pure gold and silver to finance their flight training. Whether thatís true or not, I donít know. But the US imposed reporting requirements on sellers of 24-carat gold coins. If you sell more than 24 ounces in one year youíre required to file a Form 1099 with the IRS.

    The 24-coin threshold applies to individuals, not families. If a husband and wife buy gold under their own names, they can each sell up to 24 ounces without having to report it. But if they bought the gold jointly, for instance with a check with both their names on it, they can only sell a total of 24 ounces in any given year. If a client sells 12 in March and 13 in December, all 25 ounces have to be reported to the government. If a client comes to me and sells 12 ounces and goes to another dealer and sells 13 ounces, they have triggered the reporting requirement, and itís their responsibility to report it. Even if they think theyíre getting away with something they may not be. Iím required to keep records, so if the government calls I have to reveal them. There are several cases where coin sellers have had to pay huge penalties for trying to avoid reporting by using more than one dealer.

    Most 22-carat gold coins are exempt from Patriot Act reporting requirements, the only exception being the krugerrand.

    DC: You mentioned European coins. Why are they exempt?

    TC: There are some European coins that arenít being made any more. Technically, people consider them to be rare, semi-numismatic coins. But some of them are actually cheaper than the major bullion coins. For example, the Austrian corona was only made from 1908 to 1915. It has .9802 oz of gold in it. If youíre out there today buying a gold eagle, youíre going to pay 5% Ė 6.5% over spot. But I buy Austrian coronas from a central bank as bullion coins, and can sell them at 2.75% over spot.

    Another good example is the French 20 franc coin, which was made from 1856 to 1914. It contains 0.1867 ounce of gold, so it takes 5.35 of them to equal an ounce. Fractional coins usually have very large premiums. For example, a quarter-ounce gold eagle is somewhere between 10% and 12% over melt. Weíve got French 20 franc coins at 4.5% over spot and weíre selling hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of them because theyíre completely confidential. So the best buy right now is the European coins because of their combination of low premiums and confidentiality. Every major wholesaler that I deal with puts a price out trying to buy these European coins every day. Thereís big demand for them.

    DC: Letís summarize with a list of which coins are and are not reportable.

    TC: The following one-ounce gold coins are reportable beyond the 24-ounce threshold: the maple leaf, philharmonic, kangaroo, krugerrand, Mexican onza, and buffalo. All one-ounce gold bars are also reportable above 24 ounces.

    The following 22-carat gold coins are not reportable: US gold eagle, Mexican 50 peso, Austrian 100 corona, British sovereign, French 20 franc, Swiss 20 franc.

    DC: Got it. What about silver?

    TC: Silver is very easy. There are only two things. One is a full bag of junk silver which contains 715 ounces and constitutes $1,000 face value. It is reportable in the calendar year that itís sold. The other is silver bars and coins in any combination Ė one-ounce, ten-ounce, 100-ounce or 1000-ounce Ė once the total hits 1,000 ounces. So you can actually sell more ounces in silver bars than you can of junk silver and not have to report it.

    DC: Any risk of these rules being tightened?

    TC: They tried with the health care bill provision that any transaction over $600 required a 1099, but when everybody realized that whether you bought a high-def TV at Wal-Mart or a gold bar or a car, both the buyer and seller would have to send a 1099 to the government, they dropped that rule. I donít see anything similar on the horizon.

    http://dollarcollapse.com/precious-m...-reporting-it/
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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    I was in the local coin shop this morning talking to the owner , he stated he reports only amounts of $10,000 or more, regardless of buying or selling. Just what are the rules, seems everyone interprets differently. IRS rules, Patriot Act rules, etc....

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    There's quite a bit of doublespeak here which has not been decided upon.

    If you do the research, precious metals carry a capital gains tax of 28%. The capital gains tax is supposedly due and payable once the PM is cashed out into US dollars. As far as I understand, the capital gains tax would still apply in most (if not all) cases, regardless of whether there was official reporting. Remember, if I have a lemonade stand and make $20 on a weekend, I am still supposed to report it as income.

    The IRS code treats trades at their dollar value. For example, if I am a contractor and I decide to trade some contracting work in exchange for a pick-up truck, I should attempt to value the cost of my work vs. the pickup truck and keep records for the transaction as if I had invoiced out my work in US dollars and was paid for it in US dollars. Then, I would report the pick-up truck's value as revenue minus my expenses to perform the work to calculate income.

    To add to the confusion, many PMs are legal US tender. I can take a junk silver dime, quarter, and half-dollar and use it for legal commerce. In this case, one must question how you can take capital gains on legal tender. I know that pre-1981 pennies and nickels have copper value that exceeds the face value of the coin. Should a lawful citizen report these as capital gains when they are cashed out? If you are bringing the case to that level, could all of us file our taxes with capital losses since the money we are paid in has lost some of it's value by the time we are ready to spend it.

    Those are just the legal issues. When you get to paperwork and enforcement, it's not hard to see why this is the power structure's biggest nightmare -- independent citizens with anonymous wealth that cannot be tracked, controlled, taxed or even reported on in smaller denominations with a dubious at best claim to tax profits on trading one form of legal tender for another.

    bb
    Last edited by bb28; 12-21-2012 at 02:33 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by 917601 View Post
    I was in the local coin shop this morning talking to the owner , he stated he reports only amounts of $10,000 or more, regardless of buying or selling. Just what are the rules, seems everyone interprets differently. IRS rules, Patriot Act rules, etc....
    What he is referring to is a form 8300 which must be filed for any time that $10,000 or more in CASH is transferred from one party to another for a single transaction. This rule is not specific to metals and coin dealers.

    http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Form-8300-and-Reporting-Cash-Payments-of-Over-$10,000

    bb

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    I have a widget that my friend values. He wants to trade it for something he has that I could use. We agree to the trade. Why in the heck anyone else should be involved or think they need a cut of that transaction is beyond me.
    Taxing trade is nonsensical garbage. What govt service was used or infringed upon?

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    To add to the confusion, many PMs are legal US tender. I can take a junk silver dime, quarter, and half-dollar and use it for legal commerce. In this case, one must question how you can take capital gains on legal tender. I know that pre-1981 pennies and nickels have copper value that exceeds the face value of the coin. Should a lawful citizen report these as capital gains when they are cashed out? If you are bringing the case to that level, could all of us file our taxes with capital losses since the money we are paid in has lost some of it's value by the time we are ready to spend it.
    Simple: If you cash in (use in commerce) that Franklin half for the .50 value then there is no capital gain....if you sell it for more than you bought it for then there is

    If you sell $1000 worth of copper pennies for more than the $1000 then there is a gain

    If you use money that says $5 on it and buy something for $5 then there is no loss....as my father always said "Five bucks will always get you five bucks worth of gas"

    It's really not rocket science.....and....it would be a bit anal to report every barter transaction on a tax form but feel free to report away....Do you REALLY think EVERY Ebay transaction is reported??? REALLY????

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    so we have managed to confuse three reporting schemes - IRS, the $10,000 cash limit, and the special patriot act rules for money equivalents and bullion.

    the patriot act has special rules for bullion. that is what this guy is referring to. most investors and bullion dealers know little about these. this is what the person being interviewed is referring to.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwoods Man View Post
    Simple: If you cash in (use in commerce) that Franklin half for the .50 value then there is no capital gain....if you sell it for more than you bought it for then there is

    If you sell $1000 worth of copper pennies for more than the $1000 then there is a gain

    If you use money that says $5 on it and buy something for $5 then there is no loss....as my father always said "Five bucks will always get you five bucks worth of gas"

    It's really not rocket science.....and....it would be a bit anal to report every barter transaction on a tax form but feel free to report away....Do you REALLY think EVERY Ebay transaction is reported??? REALLY????
    It goes a bit further than that. If I have $1.00 of pre-1965 coins with .715 oz of silver content, the market would say that at ~$30/oz it is worth ~$21.45. If I use this $1.00 in a commerce transaction, who is to say what the item is worth that I bought or the value of my "$1.00". Plus, is it reasonable for me to track every single silver quarter I have to find out what the silver value was at the time I acquired it?

    If you sell $1000 face value of nickels that would be 20,000 nickels. Do you have a clue what the copper value of each individual nickel was when you acquired it? And, do you have paperwork to back up that claim? If you bought the nickels at $1000 face value while copper was at $0.04 per nickel, can you claim a loss?

    bb

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    CASH MAKES NO ENEMIES, LET'S BE FRIENDS!

    Keep sales low and off the RADAR. Better to make multiple sales at various sites than take the quick & lazy way out with big money sales.
    Sell for cash at flea markets, gun shows, private sales, pawn shops and coin stores that pay in fiat.
    Checks leave a trail.
    At least make the trail hard to follow.

    At tracks and casinos the IRS is not intested in anything less than $600.00 wins. Ask Pete Rose.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Plus, is it reasonable for me to track every single silver quarter I have to find out what the silver value was at the time I acquired it?

    If you sell $1000 face value of nickels that would be 20,000 nickels. Do you have a clue what the copper value of each individual nickel was when you acquired it? And, do you have paperwork to back up that claim? If you bought the nickels at $1000 face value while copper was at $0.04 per nickel, can you claim a loss?
    If you PAID more than .25 for the quarter (and have some issues we won't get into here) then yes....if you got it in change then you "paid" .25 for it...this is not the same as a cost basis inheritance....it is your choice whether to spend it as a quarter or sell it for a tad over $5

    If you paid (or got them in change) $1000 for the nickels then you basis is $1000...it's irrelevant what they are made of..they cost $1000....sell them for $1000 and it's over...sell them for $$2000 you have a $1000 gain....again...not rocket science and molecular analysis of the coins is irrelevant. It's the beginning act (purchase) and ending act (sale) that count,,,what happens in between and even what they are made of does not enter into the equation....it's all about the Benjamins

    (can you tell it's a rainy, windy, crappy day in MA?)

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    At tracks and casinos the IRS is not intested in anything less than $600.00 wins. Ask Pete Rose.
    Casinos create a tax document after a $1200 single bet win....with ticket in/ticket out as long as you do not have a win over $1200 you will not be subject to a tax form at the casino , I have cashed out a ticket over $3000 a few times (multiple cumulative smaller wins) and have had no issues

  18. 12-21-2012, 02:01 PM

    Reason
    posted in wrong thread

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Who's on 1st?

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    It boils down to one fact. If you buy or obtain precious metals in any form and then later sell or trade for a profit, YOU OWE TAXES on the gain.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Gcubed View Post
    It boils down to one fact. If you buy or obtain precious metals in any form and then later sell or trade for a profit, YOU OWE TAXES on the gain.
    Damn....where were you earlier. I tried that same thought but with WAY too many words and examples...it obviously confused the confusable..


  23. 12-21-2012, 03:30 PM

    YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE, GOOD DAY SIR!


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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwoods Man View Post
    Damn....where were you earlier. I tried that same thought but with WAY too many words and examples...it obviously confused the confusable..

    I've said that in SO many threads like this that I'm SICK of it.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Gcubed View Post
    I've said that in SO many threads like this that I'm SICK of it.
    For a perfect example: see the post just above your last one....

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwoods Man View Post
    For a perfect example: see the post just above your last one....
    Hey, he got the math right.

  27. 12-21-2012, 04:43 PM

    YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE, GOOD DAY SIR!


  28. 12-21-2012, 04:45 PM

    YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE, GOOD DAY SIR!


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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    All I can say is "Wow!".....

  30. 12-21-2012, 07:16 PM

    YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE, GOOD DAY SIR!


  31. 12-21-2012, 07:31 PM

    YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE, GOOD DAY SIR!


  32. 12-21-2012, 07:39 PM

    YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE, GOOD DAY SIR!


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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Gcubed View Post
    It boils down to one fact. If you buy or obtain precious metals in any form and then later sell or trade for a profit, YOU OWE TAXES on the gain.
    and your transaction may be reported to FinCen even if you don't make a profit, if you paid in cash.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Gcubed View Post
    It boils down to one fact. If you buy or obtain precious metals in any form and then later sell or trade for a profit, YOU OWE TAXES on the gain.
    I contest you have NOT made a PROFIT.
    You have simply MAINTAINED purchasing power from a government authorized and Federal Reserve deployed scheme to steal from ALL though over printing / depreciation of usd (small print intended) fiat.

    Gb

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDBRIX View Post
    I contest you have NOT made a PROFIT.
    You have simply MAINTAINED purchasing power from a government authorized and Federal Reserve deployed scheme to steal from ALL though over printing / depreciation of usd (small print intended) fiat.

    Gb
    Tell that to the judge. I'm just pointing out the rules that we must follow. I didn't make them.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollie Free View Post
    I have a widget that my friend values. He wants to trade it for something he has that I could use. We agree to the trade. Why in the heck anyone else should be involved or think they need a cut of that transaction is beyond me.
    Taxing trade is nonsensical garbage. What govt service was used or infringed upon?

    For barter, the IRS requires both traders to assign a dollar value to the trade .............. make it ........ 1 dollar.

    If you trade (money) like an AGE for a used car declare the AGEs face value in trade .... make it ..... face value.

    The IRS has never challenged the face value of U.S. mint coins .......... think about that.

    Its when you convert your PMs back to FRNs is when you become liable for capital gains (participating in monetary inflation) and you get taxed and rightfully so.
    Last edited by minimus; 12-23-2012 at 12:19 PM.
    In vexillum of angelus quod liberi ... nos vadum reperio fidelis

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by minimus View Post
    For barter, the IRS requires both traders to assign a dollar value to the trade .............. make it ........ 1 dollar.

    If you trade (money) like an AGE for a used car declare the AGEs face value in trade .... make it ..... face value.

    The IRS has never challenged the face value of U.S. mint coins .......... think about that.

    Its when you convert your PMs back to FRNs is when you become liable for capital gains (participating in monetary inflation) and you get taxed and rightfully so.
    Actually, they did. Anyone else remember the story of a guy several years back who owned a business and decided to pay his emloyees in gold coins. They were making something like $5 per pay period. The IRS raided the place and prosecuted the owner (successfully, I think).

    http://heidilore.wordpress.com/2009/...in-gold-coins/

    bb

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDBRIX View Post
    I contest you have NOT made a PROFIT.
    You have simply MAINTAINED purchasing power from a government authorized and Federal Reserve deployed scheme to steal from ALL though over printing / depreciation of usd (small print intended) fiat.

    Gb
    SO using your faulty logic if I had bought gold in January of 2007 for $600 and sold that same gold 14 months later for $1000 I would not have made a profit ...because the value of the dollar had decreased (?) by a value equal to the 65% positive change in gold price and it was a wash?????

    ...and if I had instead bought that same gold for $1000 in March 2008 and sold it 7 months later for $700 I would not have realized a loss because the dollar had strengthened (?) by the same 30% decrease in value of the gold and it was a wash???

    Really???? I think I could handle "maintaining" with that extra $400 in my pocket from example one and I guess I shouldn't feel bad about having $300 less in example #2 because I was just "maintaining" again...

    Really???

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    That's really the rub. If you keep your money in FRNs and lose value, you cannot claim capital losses.

    If you trade for metals you need to claim capital gains just for preservation of wealth.

    First they tax you on the income, then they tax you just to keep it and then they tax the transaction.

    bb

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    I am buying a little bauble for the missus from my local jeweler, it contains some gold and a couple of green stones. If I pay cash the jeweler will not charge sales tax (8.375%), do you think that sale will be reported?
    Likely it won't be reported at that tax rate. And I'm more than glad to pay in cash.
    This is not a hyperlink, don't try clicking on it!

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by bb28 View Post
    Actually, they did. Anyone else remember the story of a guy several years back who owned a business and decided to pay his emloyees in gold coins. They were making something like $5 per pay period. The IRS raided the place and prosecuted the owner (successfully, I think).

    http://heidilore.wordpress.com/2009/...in-gold-coins/

    bb

    It was a lot more complex than that.


    "Three of the four present defendants were among the nine people tried on similar charges two years ago, but no convictions resulted. In the 2007 trial, four others of the nine defendants, including Kahre's mother, were entirely acquitted. Two individuals were only partially acquitted, but dropped from the indictment that forms the basis for the trial before Ezra."

    "This time around, the only new defendant is Danille Cline, Kahre's girlfriend of 19 years, and the stay-at-home mother of his four children. The government claims she obstructed the Internal Revenue Service by allowing Kahre to place several homes in her name, thus attempting to conceal his assets."


    http://www.lvrj.com/news/46074037.ht...ts?submitted=y
    In vexillum of angelus quod liberi ... nos vadum reperio fidelis

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Gcubed View Post
    Tell that to the judge. I'm just pointing out the rules that we must follow. I didn't make them.
    RULES and LAWS are meant for the obedient to follow and the rest to challenge. Why else have Courts, and in the US, The Jury System ?

    The People have been known to WIN in Court(s) and get legislators to change or amend laws at the state and federal levels.

    Civil Disobedence is allowed by our Constitution.

    Gb

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwoods Man View Post
    ...and if I had instead bought that same gold for $1000 in March 2008 and sold it 7 months later for $700 I would not have realized a loss because the dollar had strengthened (?) by the same 30% decrease in value of the gold and it was a wash???

    Really???? I think I could handle "maintaining" with that extra $400 in my pocket from example one and I guess I shouldn't feel bad about having $300 less in example #2 because I was just "maintaining" again...

    Really???
    The 1040 forms I use has a section for LOSSES if you choose to report.

    DYODD,
    Gb

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by minimus View Post
    It was a lot more complex than that.


    "Three of the four present defendants were among the nine people tried on similar charges two years ago, but no convictions resulted. In the 2007 trial, four others of the nine defendants, including Kahre's mother, were entirely acquitted. Two individuals were only partially acquitted, but dropped from the indictment that forms the basis for the trial before Ezra."

    "This time around, the only new defendant is Danille Cline, Kahre's girlfriend of 19 years, and the stay-at-home mother of his four children. The government claims she obstructed the Internal Revenue Service by allowing Kahre to place several homes in her name, thus attempting to conceal his assets."


    http://www.lvrj.com/news/46074037.ht...ts?submitted=y
    The concealing was of real estate assets NOT for paying workers in US Gold Coinage. That's called "shotgunning" the prosecutor throws enough sh!t at the defendant something ends up sticking.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDBRIX View Post
    The 1040 forms I use has a section for LOSSES if you choose to report.

    DYODD,
    Gb

    Ahhhhh..I get it now....you can have real losses but you can't have real gains....gains are paid in money that is worth less (65% in 14 months) but losses are real because money never is worth more

    ...and the fact that the metal just could have appreciated or depreciated purely because of demand or the lack of is totally erroneous....

    (as was mentioned previously that same 1040 form also has a section for gains if you choose to report)

    Happy Holidays

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Gcubed View Post
    It boils down to one fact. If you buy or obtain precious metals in any form and then later sell or trade for a profit, YOU OWE TAXES on the gain.
    I only wish I had a taxable gain problem, right now sitting on a loss. (purchased the stuff in 2011).

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by bb28 View Post
    Actually, they did. Anyone else remember the story of a guy several years back who owned a business and decided to pay his emloyees in gold coins. They were making something like $5 per pay period. The IRS raided the place and prosecuted the owner (successfully, I think).

    http://heidilore.wordpress.com/2009/...in-gold-coins/

    bb
    September 30, 2007


    Media Blackout:
    161 Federal Tax Charges, 0 Convictions

    IRS Suffers Staggering Defeat
    Tax Questions Raised Regarding
    Gold and Silver Coins Used to Pay Wages

    Around noon on Monday, September 17th, a Las Vegas federal jury returned its verdict refusing to convict nine defendants of any of the 161 federal tax crimes they had been charged with. The charges included income tax evasion, willful failure to file and conspiracy to evade taxes.

    The four-month trial centered around the family businesses of Robert Kahre who paid numerous workers for their labor with circulating gold and silver U.S. coins, and did not report the wages. The payments took place over several years, allegedly totaling at least $114 million dollars.

    On September 20, 2007, three days after the federal trial's dramatic conclusion, the Las Vegas Review Journal, reportedly under a degree of public pressure, ran its first (and last) story about the outcome of the trial. To this day, with exception of the single article by the Review Journal, no major media entity has published a news story regarding the outcome of this important federal criminal tax case.

    The censorship of this important news story is, unfortunately, not unexpected given the continuing, worldwide onslaught against the U.S. "dollar" -- specifically the Federal Reserve variety, and the ever growing numbers of Federal Reserve Notes required to trade for an actual ounce of silver, gold, oil, or for that matter, anything.

    In short, this failed prosecution has coalesced and exposed truths our Government desperately needs to hide from the People: the truth about our money, the truth about our (privately-owned) central bank, and the truth about the fraudulent nature of the operation and enforcement of the federal income tax system.

    Click here to read the April, 2005 DOJ press release announcing the prosecution.
    Click here to read the 9/20 story by the Review Journal about the trial.

    According to defense attorney Joel Hansen, who represented co-defendant Alex Loglia, the primary "willfulness" defense was that the defendants believed they had no legal obligation to withhold, pay income taxes or report anything to the government because, in part, the nominal (i.e., face value) of the gold and silver coins is so small as to fall beneath the reporting thresholds set by the Internal Revenue Code.

    The Defendants also argued that regardless of the valuation of the coins for internal revenue purposes, there is no law that requires average American workers to file or pay direct, un-apportioned taxes on the fruits of their labor.

    The Government argued that the payments in solid gold and silver U.S. coins must be considered at their bullion (i.e., intrinsic full-market) value when considering the worth of the wages for purposes of the internal revenue code.

    Attorney Hansen cited two Supreme Court cases bolstering Defendant's monetary argument at the heart of the defendants "willfulness" defense.

    The essence of the argument is that under the Constitution Congress is obligated by law to mint and circulate such coins as demand requires, and must establish the value of coins as they are used as legal tender, but the coins' market value, arising as valuable personal "property," is a distinct, separate attribute of such coins, and is of no legal consequence if the coins are used as legal tender.

    In other words, if a worker is paid with such coins, his taxable "income" (if any) can only be the face value indicated upon the coin money paid -- i.e., $1.00 for a circulating silver dollar or $50 for a circulating gold U.S. coin. Not surprisingly, the IRS has never issued any public guidance regarding this significant issue.

    The first case, Ling Su Fan v. U.S., 218 US 302 (1910) establishes the legal distinction of a coin bearing the "impress" of the sovereign:

    "These limitations are due to the fact that public law gives to such coinage a value which does not attach as a mere consequence of intrinsic value. Their quality as a legal tender is an attribute of law aside from their bullion value. They bear, therefore, the impress of sovereign power which fixes value and authorizes their use in exchange."
    The second case, Thompson v. Butler, 95 US 694 (1877), establishes that the law makes no legal distinction between the values of coin and paper money used as legal tender:

    "A coin dollar is worth no more for the purposes of tender in payment of an ordinary debt than a note dollar. The law has not made the note a standard of value any more than coin. It is true that in the market, as an article of merchandise, one is of greater value than the other; but as money, that is to say, as a medium of exchange, the law knows no difference between them."
    Defense attorney Hansen confirmed that members of the jury were able to actually hold and inspect the gold and silver U.S. coins paid to the workers.

    After almost four months of testimony and three and a half days of deliberation, the jury did not convict any of the defendants of any of the 161 crimes alleged. Although some defendants were acquitted of multiple counts, and several were acquitted completely, others may have to stand for a retrial if the Government brings charges a second time.

    The Review Journal reported the jury foreman claimed DOJ prosecutors admitted they were "shocked" by the outcome.

    In March 2007, the primary defendant, Bob Kahre, filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against the prosecutor and IRS agents who had conducted what he alleges to be an unlawful search and seizure raid. In 2005, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals refused to overturn a previous District Court ruling holding that the federal prosecutor is not entitled to absolute immunity for the unlawful raid. Read more.

    Click here to execute a Google News search to attempt to locate recent news stories about the Kahre tax trial.

    The media suppression of this story is similar to the widespread mainstream media suppression of the July 11, 2007 acquittal of Louisiana attorney Tommy Cryer who was also charged with multiple federal income tax crimes and relied upon numerous Supreme Court precedents and U.S. tax laws to establish his "willfulness" defense. Click here for a previous WTP update containing a link to Cryer's 100-page Motion to Dismiss which details his legal arguments.

    Click here to execute a Google News archive search to attempt to locate news stories about Tommy Cryer's tax trial.



    PLEASE NOTE: Following recent statements by the DOJ, most of the content of the WTP websites (including our on-line store) has been fully restored for public access. The "6700" case is currently being appealed to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals.

    http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org...2007-09-30.htm

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    If one pays 30FRN for a 1dollarUS minted coin didn't they see a loss?

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Po'boy View Post
    If one pays 30FRN for a 1dollarUS minted coin didn't they see a loss?
    Not at all. Where the heck ya been, bro?

    You walk down the street and see a yard sale. You buy quarter that is clad, but it is a Nebraska quarter, and both you and the seller love Nebraska clad quarters. So you pay $10 for it.

    Did you see a loss?

    But, but... you paid MORE FRN's for that US-minted quarter than face value, right?

    That ain't a loss, is it.

    See it now?

    Now what happens when Po'Boy goes back to New-Braska, where those US-minted quarters are snapped up for $20 each by the locals...

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Po'boy View Post
    If one pays 30FRN for a 1dollarUS minted coin didn't they see a loss?
    Obviously you do NOT collect coins....EVERY purchase would be a loss...and I guess we won't talk about that '09S vdb that should have sold for 0.01...nothing should EVER cost more because ALL increases are due to the FRN's we use..not the actual demand for the product which is totally not a factor..

    Amazing!...and kinda scary

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Unca Walt View Post
    Not at all. Where the heck ya been, bro?

    You walk down the street and see a yard sale. You buy quarter that is clad, but it is a Nebraska quarter, and both you and the seller love Nebraska clad quarters. So you pay $10 for it.

    Did you see a loss?

    But, but... you paid MORE FRN's for that US-minted quarter than face value, right?

    That ain't a loss, is it.

    See it now?

    Now what happens when Po'Boy goes back to New-Braska, where those US-minted quarters are snapped up for $20 each by the locals...


    I buy an asset say a house for 50k in FRN then sell for 15kSae they are both legal tender as per the US code, on paper there was a loss.

    If the reverse I had a taxable gain.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Oops...forgot this link as a comment to the huge post above:

    (I won't take up a whole page)

    Same case....guilty verdict. I posted the article from the Las Vegas Review Journal rather than from a biased article

    http://www.lvrj.com/news/53287717.html

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Error in post ...removed

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwoods Man View Post
    Oops...forgot this link as a comment to the huge post above:

    (I won't take up a whole page)

    Same case....guilty verdict. I posted the article from the Las Vegas Review Journal rather than from a biased article

    http://www.lvrj.com/news/53287717.html
    Qoute from article.

    Kahre, or the defendants who worked for him, occasionally kept some pay in coin form. But prosecutors argued that the process of converting coin to paper money was a sham transaction, with no economic value, and was designed only to disguise tax evasion. As proof, prosecutors cited business records suggesting Kahre kept only $40,000 in coins in his business safe in one three-month period, during which he covered a payroll of about $8 million.

    Busted for tax evasion not avoidance.

    I guess he never heard of private business and non disclosure agreements.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Po'boy View Post
    Qoute from article.

    Busted for tax evasion not avoidance..
    I may be simple but to evade taxes is to avoid paying them....but I'm not a tax lawyer.

    I was more interested in the fact that the defendant that was "not guilty" in the original article were actually convicted on 59 counts. It was very misleading and inferred that they avoided (or evaded) any punishment

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwoods Man View Post
    I may be simple but to evade taxes is to avoid paying them....but I'm not a tax lawyer.

    I was more interested in the fact that the defendant that was "not guilty" in the original article were actually convicted on 59 counts. It was very misleading and inferred that they avoided (or evaded) any punishment

    In the link the prosecutor seemed to make a distinction between avoidance vs. evasion. Legal terms I'd bet.


    Not a lawyer either.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Po'boy View Post
    In the link the prosecutor seemed to make a distinction between avoidance vs. evasion. Legal terms I'd bet.


    Not a lawyer either.
    Happy Holidays to all.....

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwoods Man View Post
    Oops...forgot this link as a comment to the huge post above:

    (I won't take up a whole page)

    Same case....guilty verdict. I posted the article from the Las Vegas Review Journal rather than from a biased article

    http://www.lvrj.com/news/53287717.html
    Man that case is really interesting. Seems they tried him before and lost them tried again. Double Jeopardy?

    Seems the jury was dull as ****.

    Jurors rejected a recurring defense theme, that the defendants sincerely believed Congress gave them the permission to go by the dollar amounts stamped into the coins by the U.S. Mint.

    Certified public account Wayne Paul, brother of Texas congressman Ron Paul, testified that Congress created a dual monetary system when it authorized the gold and silver coins that currently circulate. That means, according to the accountant, that people can switch between coin and paper money, always going by the printed value.

    The jury should have been forced to listen to the man who wrote Pieces of Eight.
    FF to 4:20

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDBRIX View Post
    The concealing was of real estate assets NOT for paying workers in US Gold Coinage. That's called "shotgunning" the prosecutor throws enough sh!t at the defendant something ends up sticking.
    the guy who paid his employees with silver and gold did get busted. legally, its a very gray area. however, there were some additional facts which made a conviction easy - the gold and silver was just a sham. It worked like this. Say the guy owed you $500. he gave you US silver coins with a metal value of $500, then offered to immediately buy them back from you for 500 FRNs. So that made the prosecution very easy. If you dig behind the numbers, say silver is at $35 an ounce, so 90% coins are worth about 25 times face value. If this guy makes payroll by handing you $20 FV silver, what do you pay income tax on - $20 or $500? Well, the IRS would clearly say if you 'spend' the $20 of silver for say $500 in groceries, you pay income tax on $500, whether that is from the employment transaction or the trade your silver for groceries transaction. If you just hold the silver, its a much tougher question.

    So yes, as someone mentioned above, there are interesting legal and constitutional questions here for someone stupid enough (person who acts against their own interests) to go tilting at the IRS windmill.

    the reason to have pms is to ensure your security, not jeopardize your security. understand how the IRS interprets its tax rules and act accordingly. render unto ceaser . . .

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    All I do is BUY...saves me the trouble of having to worry about all this stuff
    $100OZ SILVER


    ~~Paddle faster I think I hear banjos~~

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    I believe that the reintroduction of "legal tender" gold and silver coins was done for the purpose of giving a way for those in the Republic to be able to lawfully transact with others outside of the "US democracy" that has been overlaid on the still-existing Republic.

    I am of the mind that there are two separate systems being confused, both intentionally and also by ignorance, which are manifested in the court battles over fiat "dollars" vs. gold and silver dollars.

    And as far as I am concerned, if I trade x silver and gold dollars for something, then that something is worth just that, just as it would be if I traded y number of FRNs for something. There are two distinct money systems at work simultaneously in the USA since the 1986 reintroduction of lawful money imo.

    2c, R.
    "Walk the gold trails of my good friend, do I. On my feet are "strong sole" of thick leather, purchased with much knowledge of physical gold. These shoes not go bare before our journey is done. On trail I see your "thin sole" gold investments cast aside and scavenged by beasts." - ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) (04/14/01; 18:08:54MT - #: 51887)

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Excellent thread! I would like to add my two cents here. Earlier this year I contacted the IRS free service to answer questions in regards to tax requirements. At the time I was thinking about the gold/silver ratio trade and its tax consequence. I actually spoke(and paid for) to several accountants about trading gold for silver using like kind exchange and I found there is a huge grey zone here. So I called the IRS and posed this question by giving them a hypothetical situation then asking them what my tax liability would be. I told the agent that I have been a long term coin collector. I also told her that I have been saving US silver coins that state 10, 25 and 50 cents also 1 dollars coins and that is what I acquired them for. I said that I really like the US gold coins presently being produced by our mint and I wanted to acquire them using my silver coins to do so. So my question was if I went to coin dealer and gave him $100 face value in silver coins for a US gold coin that is stamped $50. Now a couple of years have passed by and I decided I wanted to sell my US gold coin for US silver coins and I received $200 worth of them. So what is my tax liability? She told my liability was on the $100 I made in a capital gains.
    Last edited by silverwood; 12-26-2012 at 01:43 PM.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Everyone is waiting to use American legal tender for some arbitrary # in FRN.

    When if those same people used it as was intended it would starve the very system enslaving them.

    Long live the republic? Why not use it's money? Isn't that what the founders intended?

    Grocery store doesn't trade for fair value? Find a farmer that produces good clean food.

    Build networks now BEFORE TSHTF and the transition might be less painful.

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    Default Re: How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarok View Post
    I believe that the reintroduction of "legal tender" gold and silver coins was done for the purpose of giving a way for those in the Republic to be able to lawfully transact with others outside of the "US democracy" that has been overlaid on the still-existing Republic.
    this is true. The guy who did this in Utah had a good interview posted here (from anotbher site) a few months back. He basically admitted its largely a meaningless gesture but was intended to make the IRS argument more difficult.

    One thing the IRS does is only take the easy cases. The guy in vegas paying in coins and then immediately buying the coins back for FRNs was an easy case. If he paid in coins, and the state said those coins were legal tender, its a much harder case.

    still, the tax rules are largey whatever the IRS says they are, fair or unfair.

    as far as legal tender laws, i believe (but may be wrong) that only Utah has enacted this. Its been proposed in somewhere like 10-20 states, but AFAIK went nowhere.

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