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2 sets of books

Discussion in 'Topical Discussions (In Depth)' started by Scorpio, Apr 9, 2016.



  1. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    A theory has been brought to light by one of our posters,

    in that many towns/cities/municipalities run with a dual set of books.

    One that is used for public consumption as they beg for this and that, go after more dough from the slaves, all the above.

    Whereas there is a second, that never sees the light of day, and this second set is flush with dough from over taxation over long long periods.

    If true, where and how far does it reach? Is it only on a local level, or is it state and fed also?
     
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  2. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    I know a lot of businesses do this, especially the ones that pay a part of their employees wages under the table so it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see towns, cities, states and the feds doing the same thing. Unfortunately I don't think I'll live long enough to see it brought to light.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
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  3. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Platinum Bling

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    IDK, tax is a percentage of....So account receivable could be an unknown. If they, a town, are running two sets of books then I would think they would pocket out of the hidden book. And, I mean skim, but why would one skim off of a pot of money when no one knows it exists?
    I've never seen a thief take just a little.
     
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  4. bemac

    bemac Midas Member Midas Member

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    I heard of this BS before, it was some video on youtube and the first thing I caught was their (mis)calculation of gasoline tax. They gave some absurd number of gasoline tax revenue, but I checked the stats and looked up the taxes, did the math, and they were WAY WAY off. If all cities and states were doing this, there would be a massive amount of "missing" money that would just be too big of an amount to hide from everyone. I don't get the incentive. Politicians love to spend money, they wouldn't have a load of it sitting around collecting dust.
     
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  5. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    As far as having a second set of books don't think so. As far as not counting all the assets they have that can be sold, yes.
     
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  6. gringott

    gringott Killed then Resurrected Midas Member Site Supporter

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    The Mob in NYC had a great scam where they were supplying gasoline and just not paying the taxes. Every once in a while, they would close the company and start a new company, again not paying the taxes. Nobody noticed. Get it? Nobody noticed.
     
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  7. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    The Truth About State and Local Governments Having Excesses of Your Tax Dollars They Are Not Using.

    http://www.cafrman.com/

     
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  8. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    One example being the Lotto business government scum presently has. They could sell it for a tidy sum but it is not counted as an asset of theirs.
     
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  9. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Modal Operator/Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Sell it? They STOLE the idea from the mafia!


    In my little town the public works folks make some pretty good coin with just a high school diploma.
     
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  10. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Here is a funny video from the early seventies on the money that is made in the numbers racket now lotto.
     
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  11. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    I would not call it "Two Sets of Books". I would call it the Incomplete Set of Financial Reports.

    Comprehensive Annual Financial Report :Anytime you hear the term: RAINY DAY FUND(s). Your local / state politician are talking about the part of the budget they choose NOT to discuss ESPECIALLY when they wish to raise local and/or state taxes.
     
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  12. D-FENZ

    D-FENZ Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    No thread about dual sets of municipal books would be complete without mention of the long running embezzlement scheme from the town of Dixon, Illinois by city comptroller and treasurer, Rita Crundwell.

    With her position, Crundwell was able to pilfer an average of about 5 million per year for 10 of the 20 years that the scandal ran. This from a town with a population of barely 16,000 residents. All told, she ended up with nearly 54 million dollars. It's hard to imagine how Dixon was able to keep the street lights lit with that big of a hole in the till. Rita used the loot to fund her world class Quarter Horse breeding operation. Her crime was finally uncovered when she took an extended vacation and her temporary replacement noticed some irregularities. The scheme fell apart in April of 2012.

    It brieifly made national news and CNBC ran a segment on it in their American Greed program but it received surprisingly little coverage otherwise. Wikipedia has a blurb on it here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Crundwell

    Fascinating story.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
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  13. oldgaranddad

    oldgaranddad Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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  14. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Michael Franzese
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Franzese

    Gas-tax Fraud Tied To Mob Families
    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...gas-tax-michael-franzese-colombo-crime-family

    Mafia-Aided Scheme Evades Millions in Gas Taxes
    http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/06/n...vades-millions-in-gas-taxes.html?pagewanted=1
     
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  15. arminius

    arminius Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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  16. 90%RealMoney

    90%RealMoney Midas Member Midas Member

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    I watched that episode of American Greed, it was a good one. The new season just started, and one of the new episodes was on Ray Nagan. Remember, the Mayor of New Orleans during Katrina? Yeah, he's in Federal Prison right now. Bush got all of the bad publicity over Katrina, while Nagan was screwing things up left and right. Another corrupt politician. At least this one got caught and prosecuted!
     
  17. gringott

    gringott Killed then Resurrected Midas Member Site Supporter

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    The Katrina business was a full blown propaganda war against Bush, and the propaganda won.
    As 90%RealMoney said, Nagan, the real POS, is in Federal Prison with a earliest release date of May 25th, 2023. He would have got more time but the Federal Judge was a Clinton appointee.
     
  18. 90%RealMoney

    90%RealMoney Midas Member Midas Member

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    I can't even remember hearing about Nagan going to prison in the mainstream news. Only when I saw the Greed episode, that was the first I had heard, and it was years after the fact!
     
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  19. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    LameStreamMedia was doing its part to support the Fabian Socialist Agenda.
     
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  20. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    Thanks to BB for this link:
    http://www.cafrman.com/index.html

    (fast and easy to pull up any state as you wish)

    as I look into this, there is no such thing as 2 sets of books,

    it would be more accurate to state that all .gov organizations are setup with parameters governed by legalities created.

    when a person reviews the information put out by CAFR in the link provided by BB, it is spelled out quite simply. As of yet, a alternative to this has not been found.

    CAFR is Comprehensive Annual Financial Report, a balance sheet of sorts. It has 4 parts typically:

    Governmental Funds
    Proprietary Funds
    Fiduciary Funds
    Component Units

    The various budgets at all levels are created and executed within the Governmental Funds Unit. The other areas are off the table for day to day spending. They are considered off budget.

    from the link:

    ---2. Next year's budget consists only of next year's estimated revenues and next year's estimated expenditures. Previous years' revenues not used (spent) are normally not considered in the next year's budget, but should be. In other words, the previous years' revenues (as shown in the CAFR) are not recycled back to the budget process.


    Historically, a budget consists of three parts: 1) Funds brought forward (funds not previously spent); 2) Next year's estimated revenues; and 3) Next year's estimated expenditures.


    But somewhere along the way the funds brought forward category was lost. In accounting, the previous years' revenues are no longer called revenue but have been converted to Cash and Investments. Since they no longer called Revenues governments have forgotten about them to the public. They are there but not considered in the budget process, but should be.------


    In simple terms, any budget excesses are dumped off budget to these other areas and held as reserves. They then start the new budget year with zero balance in .gov funds, and continue to chase after you for additional revenue for increased wages, projects, etc.

    As I review this though, some things start coming to mind.

    1) who has control of, and where are these reserve funds?
    2) as a CAFR can detail, some depts are funded out 27-28 years out at current budget levels, why?
    3) why can't the politicians get at these funds? We all know they would spend it if they could?
    4) This is a constant theme across city after city, and state after state. So who the hell created this whole system?
     
  21. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    National and State Debt Clocks:

    Go here: http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

    Upper left corner, state debt clocks, and you can get to any state you want.

    As you review multiple states, you can see their debt/gdp ratios, total debt, total income, etc.

    ---------

    The reason I bring this part up is are they related? The CAFR reserves above and the debt clocks?

    In other words, when you get a mortgage, your home is pledged as collateral. A car, the car is pledged, and so on.

    BUT, AND A BIG BUT IT IS,

    States, Cities, and Towns have zero credit applied for their real assets. In that, there is no 'asset list' that can be used for debt services.

    The debts of the states and towns uses their reserves and cash flow to determine a credit rating and risk level. The long term assets of the state are never considered when underwriting a bond issuance. Only very short term instruments and cash are used.
     
  22. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I believe there's a word for that kind of behavior. Fraud. I've discussed this subject with dozens of my fellow countrymen & women over the years. To my knowledge, not one has ever cared enough to look into it on their own. When confronted with the complexity of the entire fraud people's eyes glaze over. However, when you put it in terms they're familiar with and compare the financial operations of governments to that of a household or individual the lights go on and the absurdity of creating an operating budget year after year that's never reconciled becomes immediately apparent.
     
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  23. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    that was the exact word I used also,

    aside from that though, it is all perfectly legal as I spelled out, so fraud is out of the question,

    the bigger questions were posed above,
     
  24. Rusty Shackelford

    Rusty Shackelford Midas Member Midas Member

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    There might be some big time city pulling this off, but the vast majority of city money managers have absolutely no clue how to even attempt this on the scale you are talking about. Most town clerks are elected with no experience needed and spend 1/2 their first term trying to figure out what to do let alone figure out how to cheat the system. You guys give elected people too much credit.
     
  25. Rusty Shackelford

    Rusty Shackelford Midas Member Midas Member

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    In indiana the state approves local budgets and sets the tax rate to fund each budget. The locals have zero say. The crappy thing is this. Let's say you budget $1000 for repairs in 2016, but thankfully you had a good year and only needed to spend $500. Much like flex spending accounts, this $500 under budget is in a use it or loose it situation. Cities and towns can't bank that money as any unused funds are immediately chopped from the 2017 budget line so the 2017 repair budget is now $500 instead on $1000. But in 2017 you experience $1200 in repairs. So in theory you are $200 short or over budget (if you count the $500 roll over from 2016). Problem is the $500 budget line is all but impossible to increase to $1000 in $2018 so when you need that $1000 for repairs you will remain funded at $500 from 2017. It becomes a vicious catch 22 and encourages year end spend of "budget surpluses" on extras just to keep the budget properly funded.
     
  26. Uglytruth

    Uglytruth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Rusty, I think your example needs a LOT of zero's added......... that way when they have a "surplus" it gets chaneled to their friends business for a kickback.
     
  27. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    Rusty,

    In theory, that is how it was working.

    But, go look it up. Choose any state you want, and you will see massive surpluses in all of them. So what we speak to in no way resembles what you are speaking to. Then dig into it further and look at where those surpluses are sitting. You will of course see that it isn't just in pensions/etc.

    and yes, back in my military days, when setting budgets, that was how it worked. In addition, there was no way in hell any of them ever turned in a surplus. They all spent like mad come EOY. Wasting millions of dollars.
     
  28. Rusty Shackelford

    Rusty Shackelford Midas Member Midas Member

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    I was talking local level not state level, as the local level is where my experience is at. Can't speak to state level is
     
  29. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    The real ? is where are these surplus funds stored & who controls them?

    Secondly, the .gov fiduciary agents overseeing the surpluses are in violation of their fiduciary duties to the residents, citizens & tax payors every year that a surplus is stored, as inflation continuously erodes the purchasing power of the surpluses.

    What would happen to the local economies if these surpluses were released into the economy; organic growth, a rise in velocity of circulation and/or push-cost inflation?

    Seems rather illogical that the states, counties & municipalities would become reliant upon annual federal funding IF they actually had access to their accounting surpluses... which implies that these surpluses may not be available to these .gov entities! Which brings up the ?, are these surpluses dead funds? If they are dead or inaccessable, is this a centralised scheme to control domestic inflation???
     
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  30. oldgaranddad

    oldgaranddad Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Surpluses are stored in special multi-year project fund accounts earmarked for specific purposes that never materialize or constantly get re-classified or get merged into another program that is over budget. It's all standard accounting tricks. Ever wonder why the New York State Dormitory Authority funds and builds parking garages at hospitals and sports stadiums? Screw the agency charter! There's money to be spent.

    It is illogical that the states, counties & municipalities would become reliant upon annual federal funding but they do it anyway. Politicians love to boast how much they got from Washington and the low information voter thinks it is free money from the Feds instead of money coming out of their pockets in the form of local taxes, fees and surcharges. The Feds keep the states, counties and cities on the hook by cooking up wildly expensive multi-year projects. Think Boston's Big Dig. The Fed's had the city of Boston and the State of MA and its Congressional delegation strung along for years going on with every other FED program they wanted with the mere hint of pulling FED funding for the Big Dig. I pay, you play my way or else...and you keep playing my way until I tell you to stop.

    Most of these surpluses are also fictitious too since the various governments and politicians will double spend the same money and then look to re-fill the coffers latter with the temporary surplus from another program later.
     
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  31. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  32. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Excellent find that speaks to the double set of books...

    Snippet:

    "A Montgomery County judge has ordered the Lower Merion School District to revoke its latest tax hike, saying the district misled taxpayers by projecting large budget deficits to justify raising taxes 4.4 percent when it actually had socked away millions of surplus dollars."
     
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  33. nickndfl

    nickndfl Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    I thought this was going to be a thread about the Clinton Foundation.
     
  34. Bigjon

    Bigjon Silver Member Silver Miner Site Supporter ++

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    I don't know why anyone here is surprised as all of these entities are corporations pretending to be government. Corporations are allowed to make a profit.

    Bend over and take it.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
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  35. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  36. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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  37. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    They could throw them out and put some honest people in but I kinda think they will just bitch for a while. Hopefully they will get rid of them.
     
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  38. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Seems to me the elected officials sitting on the School Board were prolly duped by the entrenched unelected bureaucrats that ADVISE the board members w/o any responsibility or credibility damages .... Wanna bet they are responsible for feeding the board a doomsday scenario? Smells like the Teachers Union was setting it up for some future wage & benefit increases....
     
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  39. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Obama administration admits paying entire $1.7billion Iran bill in CASH from little-known fund of taxpayer money
    • Officials say cash payments were made on January 22 and February 5
    • Treasury spokesperson said 'effectiveness of US sanctions' were to blame for cutting Iran off from the banking network
    • But opponents including Trump say cash is 'likely' funding terrorism


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3777170/Obama-administration-admits-paying-entire-1-7billion-Iran-bill-CASH-little-known-fund-taxpayer-money.html#ixzz4JZFDqdAz
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
     
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  40. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok I'd rather be Midas Member

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    First thing cities acd counties do when money is tight is talk about how many essential services they will have to cut - fire, police, sheriff... None of the pork ever comes to the table it seems.

    R.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016

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