1. TGIF for sure, as the metals markets absorbed the early attack and came back strong by end of day. Going into the weekend having very nice gains on the week. Even with the Dollar moving to the up yesterday. Metals showing real nice strength the last few weeks now.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Need more resources for the Industry Links. Have some guns/ammo, preps, pm dealers, and charts, but need more to make it a go to resource and replace bookmarks. Please send me a conversation with your ideas for others we should add. TIA. Together we will make it a great resource.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Week of 2/6/16 Closing prices & Chg Over Last Wk---- Gold $1157.7 Up 41.30-- Silver $14.80 Up 56 ct-- Oil $30.89 DOWN 2.73-- USD $97.05 DOWN 2.60-- Based on near term futures contract--- At JMB Current price AGE $1232.39 (1), SAE $18.46 (20)
  4. Please use the following for log on: www.goldismoney2.com We have moved to a new server. Please reset bookmark accordingly
  5. Added Heartland Precious Metals out of OK and LA to the map, Added Texas Precious Metals, and Added Provident Metals.

Grading service rating;NGC ANACS ICG etc

Discussion in 'PM's - Coins - Numis - Base Metals' started by REO 54, Jun 10, 2011.



  1. REO 54

    REO 54 Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    5,775
    Likes Received:
    3,544
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Is there a preference or a more widely accepted service than another?
     
  2. birddog

    birddog Gold Member Gold Chaser

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,896
    Likes Received:
    1,629
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Good question - if you don't mind me adding to your question... How much does it cost to get coins graded?
     
  3. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2010
    Messages:
    18,913
    Likes Received:
    17,474
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Zentalquabula
    IMHO PCGS is the 900 lb gorilla of coin grading. NGC is a distant second.

    Go to their web sites for info on the costs, etc.
     
    REO 54 likes this.
  4. REO 54

    REO 54 Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    5,775
    Likes Received:
    3,544
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Could you elaborate your opinion a little on that? Is that becuase they have better people or standards or.....? Thanks Phideaux
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2011
  5. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Where the weather is nice.
    I think he is referring to resale value of coins slabbed by those companies, which is likely a recognition of their grading consistency, but also their brand recognition. I prefer PCGS and NGC, and think they are comparable, but have noticed a slight premium for PCGS graded coins over NGC, but I wouldn't say by much.
     
    REO 54 likes this.
  6. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2010
    Messages:
    18,913
    Likes Received:
    17,474
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Zentalquabula
    PCGS essentially invented modern coin grading and slabbing. They are more meticulous and demanding in their grading. you can find PCGS and NGC price guides on the Internet, compare the prices, though note that the price guides are just that, guides, and they can be sorta like the MSRP on a car, not really actual market based prices. Go to your local coin dealer or even eBay and compare the actual prices for the coins you are interested in, grade by grade, for each grading service.
     
    REO 54 likes this.
  7. REO 54

    REO 54 Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    5,775
    Likes Received:
    3,544
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I went ahead and bought a NGC W MS70 Eagle 2007 first realease edition on Ebay for $80.88. My first time purchasing this type of coin.
     
  8. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Where the weather is nice.
    You should be happy with the coin. There are some modern coins, like the proof like 2009 Ultra High Relief coin, that command a higher price when slabbed by NGC over other services. Enjoy.
     
    REO 54 likes this.
  9. Foxwoods Man

    Foxwoods Man Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    361
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Since you asked opinions...I have had MANY (probably too many) coins graded and my order of preference would be PCGS, NGC, ANACS. The cost (of grading) factor also follow that same order. PCGS and NGC each have their quirks but they are usually the most respected.

    I will add that if I found a coin graded the same by both companies and the cost difference was significant i would definitely go with the better priced coin (of those two companies only). Most of my Silver Eagles are NGC graded and my ATB pucks are PCGS graded.
     
    REO 54 likes this.
  10. EO 11110

    EO 11110 He Hate Me Mother Lode

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    11,808
    Likes Received:
    7,669
    Trophy Points:
    113
    andy gause (sharp dude, coin dealer) says ngc is his #1 choice. the market seems to value the top two the same.
     
    REO 54 likes this.
  11. Solo

    Solo Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    7,187
    Likes Received:
    7,351
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm certainly no expert, but looking at slabbed coins of series I collect typically I've found that PCGS coins sell for more than NGC examples. I think part of the reason for this is due to the fact that there's a perception out there that NGC hand's out more 70's than PCGS.
     
    SirOzzyyzzO and REO 54 like this.
  12. Gray

    Gray Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    107
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    OK
    From what I understand, PCGS & NGC are the top rivals. Top tier and demand top dollar as you can be confident with the grading. ANACS is more of a packaging service and some consider them a joke. I hardly ever see sub 70 ANACS grades and if they are, even an idiot can see the flaws.
    Case in point: when its NGC or PCGS in an eBay auction, you see the service clear in the title. If its ANACS, all you see is the grade in the title with no mention of the service even in the description
     
    REO 54 likes this.
  13. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2010
    Messages:
    18,913
    Likes Received:
    17,474
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Zentalquabula
    My 07 cents (02 cents after taxes and inflation) is that an NGC coin is worth about 1/2 a grade lower than the same grade of PCGS.

    IGC is worth about 1 1/2 grades lower than PCGS and ANACS is 2 grades lower.

    So for example an ANACS 68 is worth about the same "value" as a PCGS 66.

    Just my general rule of thumb, JMHO.
     
    SirOzzyyzzO and Solo like this.
  14. Foxwoods Man

    Foxwoods Man Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    361
    Trophy Points:
    63
    ..and that's exactly what it is ...a perception...

    For example..I collect, grade and sell ASE's.....comparison stats using the 2010 POP reports of both companies:

    PCGS ...total graded 94,644....number of 70's = 71,756 which means 75% of ALL 2010 ASE bullion coins submitted were given a grade of 70 (22,736 were 69's)
    NGC......total graded 755,910..number of 70's = 48,380 which means only 6% of all 2010 ASE bullion coins were given a grade of 70 (707,402 were 69's)

    Totally depends on the coin submitted....oh.....and....perception
     
    MoMoney, EO 11110 and REO 54 like this.
  15. Solo

    Solo Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    7,187
    Likes Received:
    7,351
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for the numbers Foxwoods. I think we need a few more direct comparisons just for the sake of it. Here are the numbers from the NCG population report for the 2010 MS First spouse coins. If someone could post the PCGS numbers for the sake of comparison it would be appreciated:

    MS 2010 spouse - Total graded --- MS69 ----- MS70
    ABIGAIL FILLMORE - 675__________75________600
    JANE PIERCE - 530_______________58________472
    BUCHANAN'S LIBERTY - 731________71________660
    MARY LINCOLN - 480_____________87________393

    Roughly 88% of the coins above received a 70 from NGC.
     
  16. Foxwoods Man

    Foxwoods Man Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    361
    Trophy Points:
    63
    As I said above...it totally depends on the issue, date and type of the coin submitted. For example in 2006 PCGS ,by policy, would not give a grade of 70 to any MS ASE because they were afraid of the milk spotting potential...most of the submissions then went to NGC and soon, surprise!,, they started correctly grading the 70's.

    As hard as it is to believe, the top two companies best trait is not consistency....
     
  17. REO 54

    REO 54 Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    5,775
    Likes Received:
    3,544
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So to summerize,it boils down to the big 2 ;PCGS and NGC and after that it's a personal preference rather than hard stats?
    Thanks in advance for all your responses,it's been helpful
     
  18. JEKYLL-7

    JEKYLL-7 Seeker Seeker

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    337
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    0
    PCGS is #1 by a mile, NGC has it's uses but is a distant second as mentioned. In Canada we don't grade anything higher than a 68. The massive amount of perfect
    "70" slabs that the US TPG's have churned out is laughable.
     
  19. REO 54

    REO 54 Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    5,775
    Likes Received:
    3,544
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ok ,but why do feel PCGS is top dog?
     
  20. Foxwoods Man

    Foxwoods Man Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    361
    Trophy Points:
    63
    What are the Canadian TPG's???? Didn't know they existed.....

    ....and re: In Canada "we" don't grade anything higher than a 68..........maybe "you" should work on improving the quality of the coins produced ;)
     
  21. Buck

    Buck Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,006
    Likes Received:
    419
    Trophy Points:
    83
    No mention of what you collect...only top tier grading numbers were talked about.
    Numismatics is about MORE than just MS70 coins
    If you prefer errors, clips or the like, PCGS is NOT the company to use.
    PCGS uses a "Minor Variety" designation which is worthless.
    PCGS is missing some population reports for - 2010 Silver Eagle 25th Year Anniversary, and 2005 Silver Eagle First Strike.
    NGC I am not to familiar with.
    My error coins I strictly use ANACS.
    I can get the designation clearly on the label. The price is approx 1/3 of the other guys so I send all Morgans for VAM designation and any that are valuable as well. I can upslab at a later date. In the mean time, I have them certified, labeled and protected and I have money in my pocket.
    It is purely a personal choice.
    I have compared PCGS and ANACS with a 2001 Kennedy half dollar and PCGS is an MS64 and ANACS is an MS65.
    Same rolled coins.
    I am happy and figured a system which works for me.
    I have my PCGS membership up for renewal and I will go the cheap route.
    ANACS does not charge for membership but their online population report is atrocious, very badly kept.
    Again, personal choice.
    That's what works for me!
     
  22. REO 54

    REO 54 Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    5,775
    Likes Received:
    3,544
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "It is purely a personal choice" -Buck

    Got it.DYOD! I wonder what would pan out if you sent the same coin to all 3 graders and see what shows up for a comparison?I might try that as exercise and post results.
    What kind of coin would be good a candidate for such a trial?
     
  23. Oz Waver

    Oz Waver Gold Member Gold Chaser

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,223
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    In Australia it is PCGS is the grading company. All others do not rate a mention.

    PCGS are considered to be accurate and command a premium.
    Having seen coins first hand in holders I can say that this is true. There is a big difference between coins grades and distinctly noticeable under magnification. I 'mainly' do Australian pre-decimal silver 1910-1964.

    If I wanted coins graded, PCGS are it. What sucks is their membership structure and the fact that they are overseas in the US.
     
  24. JEKYLL-7

    JEKYLL-7 Seeker Seeker

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    337
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Market share, total value of coins graded, reputation with top tier dealers and collectors, buy-back guarantees, registry sets.

    We have two. One is quite visible at larger and national level shows and in more serious collections, the other is small but trying to gain gain momentum.
    Many of the top tier coins though are in PCGS slabs, and when sold to go Heritage Auctions in the US.

    As for the whole 70 issue, it's just a matter of old school versus new school. There was a time when a "70" was a theoretical perfect coin, but never used in practical grading practice. Somewhere along the way that changed. There are Canadian coins in "68" holders that show zero flaws at 10X, they are "70" coins by US TPG standards. My issue comes with grades above "superb MS", aka MS-67. A true MS-67 should show only the tiniest flaw, usually noted only after serious study of the coin with magnification. To suggest that a grading resolution of three more points above that is needed is probably is stretching things.

    In the end it's just the result of grade creep, with grading becoming more sloppy over time as the commonly used portion of the scale extends and dilutes.
     
  25. Apocalypto

    Apocalypto Gold Member Gold Chaser

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    1,762
    Likes Received:
    1,067
    Trophy Points:
    0
    PCGS is great. They are pretty honest about grading. When I get my coins back I am always feeling a little let-down, (because the coins don't hit the higher grades as I would have liked them to) That being said, it's actually a good thing, because it proves that PCGS won't blow smoke up people's derrieres just to gain more business.
     
  26. badhop55

    badhop55 Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    Messages:
    614
    Likes Received:
    185
    Trophy Points:
    43
    For me the 2010 ATB bullion program was a great learning opportunity re NGC, PCGS and Anacs. I was one of the first to receive a set from Apmex in late Dec 2010. Having never sent anything in for grading before I went through a local coin shop who sent the coins to NGC. They came back 68s and 69s but no PL or DMPL desig (not sure if that part of the grading had not started yet). Subsequent ATBs I sent to PCGS and received grades ranging from 64DMPL to 69PL. A couple months later I sent the NGC coins in for regrade to NGC and had one bumped from a 68 to a 69 as well a 68 to a 68PL and a 69 to a 69 PL. I look at the NGC coins next to the PCGS coins and I have to say the NGC, though lower grades, look better. It seems to me that PCGS went off track with the PL/DMPL thing. Personally, I feel NGC had higher standards regarding this particular series. And as far as Anacs goes they are the only service to grade any 2010 5 oz ATB bullion as 70.
     
  27. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    Trophy Points:
    113
    EXACTLY!

    NEITHER PCGS or NGC would even grade this coin for me as it is....

    So know your coins and the coin company to send it to.

    NGC is better on Modern Proofs; and, PCGS is better on Modern Mint States for example.


    I have a ANACS MS58 1909 D/D $20 Saint with pictures and both told me it was to rare to grade and not in their CHERRY PICKERS guide. Politics!

    It's ONE of FOUR at ANACS!
     

    Attached Files:

  28. hernancortes

    hernancortes Gold Member Gold Chaser

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    985
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm probably going to submit a few coins to ICG to see how it works out. Never dealt w/ them before, used to be a PCGS member, but have my reasons for excluding the 2 'majors' in this case.
     
  29. Dude

    Dude Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    4,353
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What is the cheapest charge that the big boys pay for bulk submissions at PCGS? Someone made an assumption that bulk can cost major submitters as little as $5 on a coin website.
     
  30. Foxwoods Man

    Foxwoods Man Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    361
    Trophy Points:
    63
    You'll probably get good grades...just don't try to sell them.....
     
  31. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I used to use them before for the ANCIENT gold coins before 1600s. Now NGC and PCGS are into them.


    THE ICG fought ROME in five wars and was said to be the Alexander the Great from Turkey.

    The NGC was a tribe that fought Julius Caesar in England where I suspect this little dittie was unearthed. Celtic they loved to make disjointed horse type things huge 100 YARDS wide on English hills in CHALK formations!

    Many thought they were backwards and could not copy the PHILLIPIS GOLD coins of before Alexander the Great's DAD - correctly - that is dead wrong - these CELTICS were like their ancient fore-bearers from Thrace (TIRAS: Noah's Grandson who was the god of War THOR! His father was Japeth Noah's son who was worshiped as the god NEPTUNE or JUPITUR (Roman god and Greek god on coins); and I believe (although still researching) that Noah was probably worshiped as ASSUR or the head god of the Assyrians which is morphed into Islamic Allah today). Noah's son Cush founded the Egyptians. As they said they came from the gods. The horse was a war animal.

    War to them was a way of adventure.

    http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...gc.r_pw.&fp=deb24ccd75812d3e&biw=1672&bih=834

    Read Rev. 2 where I believe that the Church of Pergamas was NAMED as the seat of SATAN. There they had the huge ten time life bust of Jupiter which the Germans removed and it is in Berlin now. Hitler used to preach from it to start the slaughter of the Jews in Berlin. St. Paul was told not to preach in Turkey and to head to Greece to Phillipi. Talk about going full circle, right?



    see here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uffington_White_Horse
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
    phideaux likes this.
  32. hernancortes

    hernancortes Gold Member Gold Chaser

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    985
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is gonna be done mainly to get them out of the raw where these coins are a tough sell without the mint packaging, which I do not have. One of them is a '95-W ASE which no one wants to touch unless it's graded, cannot blame them since its not a cheap coin. I will be surprised if ICG gives it a PR70. Grading through ICG looks to be less hassle and is definitely less costly than the big boys so I thought I'd give it a shot.
     
    HistoryStudent likes this.
  33. Not Sure

    Not Sure Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2011
    Messages:
    5,678
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Trophy Points:
    0
    For accuracy, NGC.

    For marketability (for some odd reason), PCGS.

    I can't stand PCGS holders.
     
    HistoryStudent likes this.
  34. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I never thought about it that way but you are 100% right.

    Nobody thinks about buying coins over couple of grand without some type of grading especially NGC or PCGS.

    Anyway, I NEVER would.

    Guarantee and all - kinda like buying with a credit card for extra insurance in case things go south and you end up with the short end of the stick.

    S.O.L. so to speak - $hit Out of LUCK!

    Funny how we a$$ume - (a$$ out of U & me) THAT everyone thinks like we do when they really do not never have and never will - and have many different models so-to-speak.
     
  35. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    Trophy Points:
    113

    They give the appearance of transparency for you simply CAN see through them.

    Otherwise NGC & ANACS has them beat hands down...


    However:
    I must have four or five different types of NGC slabs - they change them every few years.

    ANACS years ago was a LOT smaller also - I re-did them all into the NEW slicker version.

    They have different colors for a re-do and a new one AT ANACS.
     
  36. hernancortes

    hernancortes Gold Member Gold Chaser

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    985
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Got my grades back from ICG and they were pretty strict. My '95-W didn't even get PR69 and my other coin, also a modern, they said was cleaned.
     
  37. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A few months ago I sent in 8 coins to PCGS. They gave my FIRST FLIGHT $10 Gold a PF66. I almost fell over. It did not go too well with my MS70 pair. :redface:

    The two spouses came back fine MS70 and a MS69. WHEW!

    So I'll soon crack it out with my 80 pound vise and trusty towel - and that quick slow :bird: HACKSAW with the new blade.



    I :love30: LOVE :love30: NGC. :biggrin:




    ANACS is tough on gold too I sent in about 10 old 20 Franc Napoleons pieces from 1810 to 1812 - I bought them because they were really old to me. try to the USA gold pieces around $2.50 from the early 1800s. :biggrin:


    I've got several ICGs they always do a fine job too.

    From "630 some" years ago Not Bad, right? Imagine a CITY STATE founding from Attila the HUN in 440 A.D. chasing them into the Med - and lasting until Napoleon beat them in 1797.

    1350 plus years - not too bad.

    Bottom one is Attila the HUN pay-off money that why it's in fair shape.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
    Buck likes this.
  38. Buck

    Buck Silver Member Silver Miner

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,006
    Likes Received:
    419
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Thanks for the catch-up.
    I have had a few come back from PCGS as "cleaned".
    They sure did not look cleaned to me but I am not going to resubmit them...
    TPG is not for everyone and each company has their own niche' if you will.
    DYODD and continue enjoying numismatics...
    We all need to have customers and friends when it comes time to sell/trade!



    EDIT:
    MS from 1570+ years ago...now that is nice!
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
    HistoryStudent likes this.
  39. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you are not on a REGISTRY - and even if you are on one - as many of my coins are too old to qualify -

    I suggest after PCGS & NGC (the offensive A team) of course:

    ANACS & ICG (as first class authentications the defensive A team)

    My wife graduated from the University of Alabama "Go Crimson TIDE!" (Tuscaloosa )

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Alabama_Crimson_Tide_football_team
     

Share This Page