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Guns and SHTF for home defense

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by platinumdude, Apr 9, 2010.



  1. platinumdude

    platinumdude Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I hope I never have to shoot anyone but I will if I have to. What kind of weapon would you use for such a scenario? A shotgun and shtf home defense indoors would get messy. Would be difficult to clean and get new carpet during a shtf scenario. Handguns are better for going around corners and such but with less stopping power. Carbines have better stopping power than handguns but I don't know how messy they would get.

    Best scenario of course is to try to secure the home from break-ins with reinforced doors and smash resistant glass and then have your weapon ready when you hear somebody trying to break-in to stop them from coming in.
     
  2. Hystckndle

    Hystckndle Daguerreotype Fanatic Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    PD,
    Good post. A lot of people are thinking this these days.
    I recently had an experience where it helped greatly that my home did not "look " accessible.
    The guy went elsewhere and I even watched him do it.
    I have a decorative ( well, I call it decorative..heh ) fence in the FRONT yard and two layers of fence in the back.
    Full blinds and an iron / steel gate.
    I had always heard about the " look " but had never experienced it.
    For the determined intruder, that would be a different story would it not ?
    I think that you should not worry the least about your carpet, your strato lounger sofa or anything else that comes between you and your family.
    And you should have both a good pistol and a shotgun at the least.
    I am sure that more of the gun savy guys here will chime in.
    And I am sure that you chose wisely and get something soon.
    Regards, always enjoy your posts.
    Haystackneedle
     
  3. Nickelless

    Nickelless If coffee is gold, I own Fort Knox Midas Member

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    Hystckndle, can you post pictures of the "decorative" fences without compromising your security measures?
     
  4. SilverCity

    SilverCity Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Secure (baracade) the windows and doors from break-in, then bullet-proof your safe room, then all the exterior walls of your home including windows. Think lots of sandbags. Then clear "kill zones" around the perimeter of your yard. Fire-proof your roof or run a sprinkler system along the apex to put out fires caused by firebombs. Don't forget to cut gunports in strategic places around your exterior walls, well-buttressed with steel plating and more sandbags.

    Then six-foot (ten is better) chain link fence with razor wire around the periphery of your property. This will keep anyone from getting in close without alerting the dogs and occupants. Prepare for a long-term siege with food, water, communications, medical supplies, auxiliary lighting, plenty of weapons and ammo. Use the drapes and carpets to wrap bodies in for back-yard burning. Douse them good with kerosene first.

    Did I leave out anything? How about several armed neighbors watching your back. Or leave town. You did mention SHTF?

    Pre-SHTF, a Marlin 357 lever rifle, maybe Mini-14 in 223, etc., if you are concerned about post-shooting litigation. Then shotgun and pistol.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2010
  5. ~BS

    ~BS Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    if shtf, you could just rip out the carpets and live on concrete/wood if you had to. When dealing with a breakin, cleaning blood stains would be the least of my worries. After the deed is done, I'd worry first about whether to inform teh authorities or ditch the body in the woods.
     
  6. pay dirt

    pay dirt Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Shotgun for when intruder is trying to break in a door or window. The pieces of wood and or glass is enough to make mortal wounds. Outside cameras to let one know what is out there without getting in front of a window. Always wanted a tunnel that went outside so could sneak out and be able to watch from a vantage point. They never expect one to be attacking from rear, the most vulnerable point.
     
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  7. Hystckndle

    Hystckndle Daguerreotype Fanatic Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Hello Nickelless, well, it is pretty easy to "envision",
    I'll give you a wordy description and maybe a photo tomorrow when it is light out. ( OK ?) and it is totally 100% blue collar and very boring.
    In front of the 50's block bungalow I live in I have about 60 lft or so of those pressure treated ( still not stained as wife and I are still arguing about the color..heh ) 1/2 high picket fences from the Homo Depot or Lowes in a 1/2 moon kinda shape around the front of the house corner to corner.
    Not very decorative to some people, but I used that term.
    I drill srewed all the slats because they are only stapled from the store.
    And fortified the back with 2X4 as they are as you know some 1X 3 or whatever it is standard.
    They have 4X4 posts at 6 lft O.C. set in concrete for upright support.
    In FRONT of that I have a 3 lft planter with all sorts of extra stuff from the back yard.
    I use a metal trellis with a home made gate with a heavy duty gate hasp for access into the front "courtyard".
    The back is just 6 foot 6" board stockade with all screws ( at least 6 each slat ) on slats all stick built and concrete set posts.
    All 2X4 runners and 3 of those, top, middle and bottom.
    I have an outer perimeter and then an inner perimeter around the back patio. There are only two doors, front and back for the house.
    I have in the back numerous signage posted.
    A sheriff friend told me a few years back that definitive signage is a key thing if you get into a confrontation as far as local jurisdiction goes.
    I need to get a new front door plan going, that is on the list.
    I have numerous ways to fortify and block the gates and alleys back and front, and have practiced during the hurricanes that cut power here in Florida a few years ago.
    I also have numerous floodlights with motion sensors and some of those "fake" security cameras for now with the LED red lights blinking.
    Further, and seriously, I went to WallyWorld and I bought two of the
    biggest plastic dog bowls I could find and wrote with magic marker,
    " BUTCH" on one and " SPIKE " on the other.
    True story, I have been called by the telephone guy AND the cable TV guys both to make an appointment to get into my back yard.
    ( we currently have a Cahooahoooa...hah )
    I also have some of those " Protected by " XYZ " company stuck on the windows...
    My real idea in all of this was to
    A: get a prospective interloper to look / go elsewhere.
    B: if he was intent on coming in, it would be no question that he was NOT just looking to borrow some sugar to ask to use the telephone...i.e the M.O. was to break and enter.
    Anyways....just a few comments...
    Ohh...also I forgot...I bought some bamboo about 10- 15 years ago...
    Man is it a good hedge and fencing addition to the whole idea of not looking inviting.
    Regards Nickeless
     
  8. SilverCity

    SilverCity Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I have been thinking about that tunnel idea for years...
     
  9. Patriotme

    Patriotme New Member

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    This is the first post I've seen in which the author worries about how messy the carnage would be after a SHTF situation or home defense shooting. If you're serious I would suggest buying a gun that 1) You can handle well 2) A gun that will be nearby when actually needed 3) A gun that will quickly and reliably stop an attacker in a defensive scenario. As for those 3 points...you are probably the best judge of what gun to buy. I would not buy too small of a caliber because of cleanup worries.
     
  10. Eat Beef

    Eat Beef Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Mess caused by a shotgun at close range inside your home: Unbelievably terrible.

    Being ALIVE to clean it up: Priceless.
     
  11. platinumdude

    platinumdude Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I actually already have and shoot pistols and rifles of different calibers but not a shotgun yet. I think I will in a couple of weeks. Just thinking of which one I would grab. I guess really I should stock up in bleach and paint if it ever came to that and there were no stores open to go to.
     
  12. dirt to oil

    dirt to oil Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    one should factor in weather your rounds could possibly make it through your walls and in to your neighbors home
     

  13. Dont forget your "ziplock baggies"

    Get em while their cheap. :biggrin:



    http://store.colemans.com/cart/gi-style-carry-bag-xlarge-body-bag-p-474.html
     
    platinumdude likes this.
  14. Rusty Shackelford

    Rusty Shackelford Midas Member Midas Member

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    I can appreciate that concern. However, I would think that if you are looking for a home defense firearm that wont penetrate your wall and neighbors walls then in all likelyhood you have a gun (I am thinking pistol) that is just gonna hurt the baddie and not incapcitate him. Good 3in turkey loads will devestate a perp and not get into the neighbors.
     
  15. Toxa

    Toxa Seeker Seeker

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    Look in to getting an AR or AK pistol. It's a lot of fire power in a small package. I built one around RR upper with a 10 inch barrel. Keep it loaded with a 20 round mag and my own reloads.
    Here is a picture of my AR pistol.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. where's waldo?

    where's waldo? New Member

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    A handgun held in a proper shooting stance with arms extended will be as long as a carbine or HD shotgun. As for "getting messy" what the hell is that supposed to even mean? You are talking about killing someone it will be messy no matter how it is done. If your primary concern is preventing stains on your carpeting, don't get a firearms and get a taser and hope the guy doesn't knock over any glassware when he falls down.

    If you need to protect yourself and all of your weapons were equally accessible and loaded, the most logical thing would be to grab the most powerful weapon you can employ effectively (training is necessary to be effective). Whether you grab a handgun, shotgun, or plasma rifle should be decided by which one is going to make for the least mess to clean up.
     
  17. BUZ

    BUZ New Member

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    Looks like you just removed the collapsible stock.
     
  18. Toxa

    Toxa Seeker Seeker

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    What do you think it should look like?
     
  19. elroy

    elroy Silver Member Silver Miner

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    A long gun would work if you are going to barricade yourself in one room and defend the entrance.

    If you will need to "clear" the house you need a handgun. It is just to dangerous to try and go from room to room with a long gun. Either the barrel is up or down, making it worthless or the barrel is way out in front of you making it an easy target for the perp to grab and wrench it away from you.

    A handgun can be held in the right hand close to your side while using the left hand/arm to hold off a perp while putting holes in him with the handgun.

    I hope I explained this clearly.
     
  20. SilverCity

    SilverCity Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Something like this with a tac light would be useful for clearing the house:
     

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  21. where's waldo?

    where's waldo? New Member

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    Your best bet is o get some training. When you have had an opportunity to employ the various weapons in simulated scenarios, you will then have an understanding of the pros and cons of each platform.
     
  22. SilverCity

    SilverCity Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I am aware of the of the pros and cons of each one. M4 carbines and short barreled-shotguns are still standard tools-of-the-trade of most LE and military professionals engaged in tactical house-clearing scenarios.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  23. ttazzman

    ttazzman Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Tossin in my 2cts worth

    #1 Shotgun all the way ..easy to shoot -hard to miss..all purpose

    #2 forget about the mess ...any mess is to much mess so why worry about the mess...the mess will be the least of your worries

    #3 shooting them in the yard requires the ability to prove they had malicious intent to do you harm and werent just censius workers:biggrin: it is much easier to prove intent if they are in your house or their body is hanging through the window etc, someone subjested sneeking around and attacking them from behind (shooting someone in the back can get you tossed in jail even if they were breaking in your house)
     
  24. Mouse

    Mouse New Member

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    The mess inside the house is nothing compared to the mess in the wood shop that occurs afterwards.
     
  25. SAGI

    SAGI Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I say,
    If I may intrude. My two bits. Living in Kenya we face a hell of a lot more intrusions. Usually the louder the noise the better so having a shot gun is a must. Secondly in most houses the distance between you and intruder is usually less than 10 meters. In such cases who draws first and shoots usually is the winner. Never run out of bullets. So sensibly indoors I would prefer 9mm more rounds in the mag so can shoot more. I am not intending to kill the guy but if it does happen thats great. However the idea is defense so maximum number but with enough fire power to put the intruder down.

    One of a good way of defending your house is to have a grill door outside this is pad locked. It can be put together very artistically with wrought iron stuff and made to look really wonderful
    to keep the lady of the house satisfied. The second is the door itself which is the inner door. Several companies make a steel door that looks like an ordinary door but its actually a steel reinforced door that has 8 way internal bolts and has to be put up on reinforced surroundings. Grills on the inside of the windows rather than outside. This requires glass breakage before cutting can take place, so more noise. I do not know if this is legal in the states but your biggest problem is fences or rather the lack of them. Several ways to do this. First the outside perimeter. Grow a fence with thorns, add cactus if necessary or even add poison ivy. Find extremely thorny bushes which can make the outside perimeter. Bougainvillea with support helps.

    next add razor wire just behind in coils so that it is engulfed into the fence. Beyond that add a secondary fence that can attain a height of at least 6 to 8 feet. Lastly beyound this use corrugated sheets and place them with supports against the fence. Make this a kind of wall that goes around the perimeter. Finally add rose bushes on the inside, or before that purchase an electric fence unit. I think its called Elefence. These units pulse out 10000 volts DC every half second on one second and it throws the intruder off. Further to that add an alarm system to the house. This includes infrared detectors, vibrators on the window grills. As a further addition add small close circuit cameras one on the outside of the front gate as well as another on the outside of the main grill door. This can be connected to your PC or lap top some systems can be connected to your system so that it informs you through your telephone or via the internet. Lastly ensure that your front gate is as equally high as the fence and that an electric fence is connected over this gate too. Lights are important and a good deterrence so detector lights in strategic position such as in trees on the fence and high on the house positioned well is a great detriment. I hope this helps.

    Regds
    SAGI
     
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  26. pay dirt

    pay dirt Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    SAGI, dont forget one of these on the roof in case the intruders have a lot of friends.

    [​IMG]
     
  27. BUZ

    BUZ New Member

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    [​IMG]

    I have quite a few short barrels ar's, if I just took the stock off I would not call/consider it a pistol. That's just me.
     
  28. ONG

    ONG Seeker Seeker

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    And like most of the times a long gun will serve you better than a handgun. When you get to that hard corner and you can't get enough room you can then transition to your handgun.
     
  29. livtocruz

    livtocruz Seeker Seeker

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  30. Toxa

    Toxa Seeker Seeker

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    gun in that picture is incomplete and it will not work! You have to have a buffer and spring. My pistol that I built has a rra pistol buffer tube.
    If you put a butstock on a upper that has a barrel shorter then 16 inch you have to have a tax stamp and some other crap from batf.
     
  31. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    For inside the home, I would prefer something in the 9mm class or larger for a handgun. Outside, forget it unless you are under some kind of siege by zombies. There are things to do outside that discourages intruders. Several have mentioned fences, gates, special built in structural modifications and signage. Location is also a consideration, where you may have some control. I live about 300 yards off the township road back a dead end lane, (private drive), I have a sign that says, "NO TRESPASSING" I have a detector on the drive to warn me someone is driving in. Deer, dogs, cats etc., have never set it off. I was visiting an uncle who has an eye detector on his drive, every time his dog walked around it went off, don't get that kind, mostly he said they ignored it. My neighbors are all watchful. There are actually two home on my property, my son and his family live in the other home. There is rarely a time when one of is not home. We have outdoor security lighting.

    If you live where it isn't legal to have a handgun or where self-defense is not allowed, I'd move if possible. People get too attached to their location. Location is more important for self/home defense than people place on it.

    Handgun first, next shotgun, but the thing I have against shotguns is the noise factor inside and the physical length of them. They are devastating weapons none the less. My first experiences with a shotgun ended up with some totally blown up small game. If you want to totally destroy something at close range, go with a shotgun.
     
  32. NHMoldPro

    NHMoldPro New Member

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    That AR pistol was awesome, though I prefer a stock on em myself....my dad had a CAR -15 that was full auto, but he had a permit for it til he got a DUI....he had a FFL too so we got shit super cheap...I like the Sig p225 through p230 series, the glock 27 mini glock 40 cal is awesome...Heckler & Koch is probably the best guns on the market, the sp 89 and mp5k were two favorites my dad liked and the Calico liberty 650 was 100rds of 9mm or .22 depending on the model........shotguns with double odd buck or heavy birdshot works in close encounters too....but I would want several shots in one if going that route, like a street sweeper...

    Hopefully Obamma doesn't sign that treaty banning all guns, but I find it ironic that gun sales have gone through the roof since Obamma came into office.
     
  33. NHMoldPro

    NHMoldPro New Member

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    Be sure whatever you buy feels good in your hand and not uncomfortable of too heavy because you will be most effective once it becomes an extension of yourself...the walther PPKS is nice, 7+1, it's a .380 and small and comfortable....that was the 1st pistol I fell in love with....
     
  34. Gold Dog

    Gold Dog New Member

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    When you come to the corner just shoot through the wall! Awareness of where you family is is key, of course.

    If bad guys are inside your house, the LAST thing you should be worried about is damage and/or a mess you have to deal with. If is comes to it I plan to shoot the crap out of my whole house until I am positive we are safe!

    I have shotguns and AR's in various places throughout my house, under furniture and in closets. With most of them I have heavy washers on a black string, the washers are wrapped in sports tape. These can be thrown through doors and retrieved and/or bumped into stuff to provide a distraction, then you can move and or shoot while he is looking away.

    Just my $0.02.

    Dog
     
  35. SAGI

    SAGI Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Oh I love this. I know you guys think we guys in Africa go over board, and honestly it really does shit to the aesthetics of the property, but believe me you can make security beautiful too. My preference is the SMG and ping the guy at 300meters. Hell anything lower than 90 meters and I would get the SOAB with my compound bow. Silent and a hell of a lot more painful. LOL can hear the &^^%%$ screaming away as he runs down the hill with one of my serrated tips in his back end buried to the bone.
    SAGI:biggrin:
     
  36. Harvey

    Harvey Seeker Seeker

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    What you're looking at, Toxa, is the Olympic Arms OA-93 AR-15 pistol. And yes, it looks just like that ... no bolt carrier buffer and return spring.

    Check it out.

    And verily YES, it would make a dandy home defense weapon.
     
  37. MISRy

    MISRy Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Nevermind.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2010

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