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How to Sell Gold Without Reporting It

Discussion in 'PM's - Coins - Numis - Base Metals' started by Goldhedge, Dec 20, 2012.



  1. Foxwoods Man

    Foxwoods Man Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I may be simple but to evade taxes is to avoid paying them....but I'm not a tax lawyer.

    I was more interested in the fact that the defendant that was "not guilty" in the original article were actually convicted on 59 counts. It was very misleading and inferred that they avoided (or evaded) any punishment
     
  2. Po'boy

    Po'boy Gold Member Site Supporter Gold Chaser

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    In the link the prosecutor seemed to make a distinction between avoidance vs. evasion. Legal terms I'd bet.


    Not a lawyer either.
     
  3. Foxwoods Man

    Foxwoods Man Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Happy Holidays to all.....:s1:
     
  4. Po'boy

    Po'boy Gold Member Site Supporter Gold Chaser

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    Man that case is really interesting. Seems they tried him before and lost them tried again. Double Jeopardy?

    Seems the jury was dull as ****.


    The jury should have been forced to listen to the man who wrote Pieces of Eight.
    FF to 4:20
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2015
  5. Fiat Metaler

    Fiat Metaler Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    the guy who paid his employees with silver and gold did get busted. legally, its a very gray area. however, there were some additional facts which made a conviction easy - the gold and silver was just a sham. It worked like this. Say the guy owed you $500. he gave you US silver coins with a metal value of $500, then offered to immediately buy them back from you for 500 FRNs. So that made the prosecution very easy. If you dig behind the numbers, say silver is at $35 an ounce, so 90% coins are worth about 25 times face value. If this guy makes payroll by handing you $20 FV silver, what do you pay income tax on - $20 or $500? Well, the IRS would clearly say if you 'spend' the $20 of silver for say $500 in groceries, you pay income tax on $500, whether that is from the employment transaction or the trade your silver for groceries transaction. If you just hold the silver, its a much tougher question.

    So yes, as someone mentioned above, there are interesting legal and constitutional questions here for someone stupid enough (person who acts against their own interests) to go tilting at the IRS windmill.

    the reason to have pms is to ensure your security, not jeopardize your security. understand how the IRS interprets its tax rules and act accordingly. render unto ceaser . . .
     
  6. Hi Ho Silver

    Hi Ho Silver Seeker Seeker

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    All I do is BUY...saves me the trouble of having to worry about all this stuff ;)
     
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  7. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok I'd rather be Midas Member

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    I believe that the reintroduction of "legal tender" gold and silver coins was done for the purpose of giving a way for those in the Republic to be able to lawfully transact with others outside of the "US democracy" that has been overlaid on the still-existing Republic.

    I am of the mind that there are two separate systems being confused, both intentionally and also by ignorance, which are manifested in the court battles over fiat "dollars" vs. gold and silver dollars.

    And as far as I am concerned, if I trade x silver and gold dollars for something, then that something is worth just that, just as it would be if I traded y number of FRNs for something. There are two distinct money systems at work simultaneously in the USA since the 1986 reintroduction of lawful money imo.

    2c, R.
     
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  8. silverwood

    silverwood Seeker Seeker

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    Excellent thread! I would like to add my two cents here. Earlier this year I contacted the IRS free service to answer questions in regards to tax requirements. At the time I was thinking about the gold/silver ratio trade and its tax consequence. I actually spoke(and paid for) to several accountants about trading gold for silver using like kind exchange and I found there is a huge grey zone here. So I called the IRS and posed this question by giving them a hypothetical situation then asking them what my tax liability would be. I told the agent that I have been a long term coin collector. I also told her that I have been saving US silver coins that state 10, 25 and 50 cents also 1 dollars coins and that is what I acquired them for. I said that I really like the US gold coins presently being produced by our mint and I wanted to acquire them using my silver coins to do so. So my question was if I went to coin dealer and gave him $100 face value in silver coins for a US gold coin that is stamped $50. Now a couple of years have passed by and I decided I wanted to sell my US gold coin for US silver coins and I received $200 worth of them. So what is my tax liability? She told my liability was on the $100 I made in a capital gains.:cool1:
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
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  9. Po'boy

    Po'boy Gold Member Site Supporter Gold Chaser

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    Everyone is waiting to use American legal tender for some arbitrary # in FRN.

    When if those same people used it as was intended it would starve the very system enslaving them.

    Long live the republic? Why not use it's money? Isn't that what the founders intended?

    Grocery store doesn't trade for fair value? Find a farmer that produces good clean food.

    Build networks now BEFORE TSHTF and the transition might be less painful.
     
  10. Fiat Metaler

    Fiat Metaler Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    this is true. The guy who did this in Utah had a good interview posted here (from anotbher site) a few months back. He basically admitted its largely a meaningless gesture but was intended to make the IRS argument more difficult.

    One thing the IRS does is only take the easy cases. The guy in vegas paying in coins and then immediately buying the coins back for FRNs was an easy case. If he paid in coins, and the state said those coins were legal tender, its a much harder case.

    still, the tax rules are largey whatever the IRS says they are, fair or unfair.

    as far as legal tender laws, i believe (but may be wrong) that only Utah has enacted this. Its been proposed in somewhere like 10-20 states, but AFAIK went nowhere.
     
  11. Po'boy

    Po'boy Gold Member Site Supporter Gold Chaser

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  12. Fiat Metaler

    Fiat Metaler Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    legal tender is a red herring.

    all legal tender means is that if someone owes you a debt they can legally pay you with whatever the govt deems to be legal tender, whether that is paper FRNs, clamshells, or gold and silver.

    Generally speaking, gold and silver do not need legal tender status because they are money and few humans would refuse them. its money substitutes like paper FRNs and clad coins that need a law to require people to accept them.
     
  13. Po'boy

    Po'boy Gold Member Site Supporter Gold Chaser

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    I disagree the source of the destructive power in this country comes from FRN the counter is legal tender in precious metals NOT LOANED AT INTEREST.


    If it was a non starter why the gold confiscation.

    One cannot Pay a debt at LAW with FRN only discharge. Leaving a hidden claim.

    Gold and silver were property, property being owned totally with no outside controls.

    Social security has the effect of removing one from their labor which was their property and turning it to a national commodity called human resources.
     
  14. augustine

    augustine New Member

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    I have always heard that others pay for metal in cash, and sold metal for cash and never dealt with a receipt or a record... is this not the norm when dealing with coin shops?

    As far as I can tell, there would be very little trail for anyone to follow.
     

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