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Is copper the next silver prodigy??

Discussion in 'PM's - Coins - Numis - Base Metals' started by southfork, Jan 10, 2011.



  1. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Went to the Fun Show this weekend, www.funtopics.com , I was amazed to see multiple dealers from across the US selling those copper bars you see all over ebay now, whats up with this one guys?
     
  2. newmisty

    newmisty Duppy Conqueror Midas Member

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    It really can't not be. It may not be next year, but then again...

    If it' selling on the bay and its selling at the shows, it's already begun. The price is on the rise and there is no telling how hight these PM's can climb. Considering the cost to produce cents and with Canada talking of doing away with the penny, to me it's clear that Cu is going to really the poor mans silver. Especially when/if the price of silver starts to climb into the 100's
     
  3. Mr. Shiny

    Mr. Shiny Silver Member Silver Miner

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    It (the Cu ingots) is a slick way to sucker people. I've said it before, I'll say it again, as long as copper can still be found in the trash it is far from being a precious, or even a strategic metal.
    Even cent hoarders are suckers, with their half off thinking, a cent is only worth $0.02 to those who use gilding metal, anyone else isn't interested in refining pennies to remove the zinc, which cuts into the profit.

    If you do want to invest in copper, buy Cu pipe or wire at least those products can be utilized when you discover copper really is the stuff of bums, unlike those fancy copper bars, which you will find are not as easy to sell as you've been lead to believe.

    What next? Al ingots for 'investment' purposes.
     
  4. newmisty

    newmisty Duppy Conqueror Midas Member

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    I agree that the Cu ingots are a slick way to sucker people. I do not agree that penny hoarders are suckers. I have a friend who has sorted over $1000 FV and will have at least doubled his money. Not too shabby for sitting in front of the TV.

    There are Al, Ni, and Sn bars and rounds already being sold at auction. If they are attractive, they will command a premium and are.

    Just because you can "find copper" doesn't make it less strategic. I pull free silver out of circulating coins....does that make silver a "non strategic metal?"

    Fact is, Cu is an industrial semi precious metal metal with a wide range of uses who's value is sure to continue to grow. It is NOT silver and never will be, but it can certainly follow in Ag's footsteps without a stretch of the imagination.
     
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  5. TimoneX

    TimoneX Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I agree. The premiums on copper bars are way way too high currently, but if/when they come down to earth they will be a legitimate store of wealth. I've been sorting & storing copper pennies for years. Eventually they will be removed from our monetary system and it will become legal to melt them, meanwhile they can never be worth less than 1/100th of a FRN. Copper has outperformed gold as an investment since January 2010 by 2%.
     
  6. Ryedale

    Ryedale New Member

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    I agree, don't like the copper "bullion" bars, too much fabrication cost for me. Some are just existing products (bus bar?) polished up and stamped.

    Some interesting copper stuff ...

    Over 200 men died in the Quincy Mine in the ~100 years it was open.
    "Quincy Number 2 shaft was the world's deepest shaft, at 9,260 feet (2.82 km or 1.75 miles) along the dip of the deposit"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Mine
    Quincy closed in 1945.....reason.....no longer economically feasble as the vein was diminishing.

    Dig nearly two miles into the earth for "bums" metal?

    Coal, Steel, and Copper built the industrial revolution. Modern life is not sustainable without copper. Copper, silver, and tin make shit work, Gold mostly makes things pretty, and some men crazy (watch the new Alaska gold show if you're not convinced)

    Oh.....gold in computers??
    http://www.finishing.com/447/06.shtml

    October 23, 2008

    I agree completely that there isn't enough gold in computer scrap to make money at refining without a very large source of scrap. I tried recovering gold out of scrap TV components and only recovered a few specks. But I couldn't believe the amount of silver in it. Nearly every bit of solder on a circuit board is apparently silver solder. The number one goal for an electronic scrapper would have to be efficiency. But if you collect all the metals you can make money. The copper, silver, even the steel have a value that you can cash in on. If you wish to try it then I highly recommend the book "Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals" by C.W. Ammen. It gives a lot of details about processes used from recovery ore, jewelry scrap, and electronic scrap. It tells about the acid process and the electrolytic process. It even gives directions on how to build a chlorine drum to recover gold from electronics and ore.
    Lane Crow
    - Jackson, Mississippi



    A good article.
    http://www.minesandcommunities.org/article.php?a=9583

    IN Afghanistan’s Logar Province, just south of Kabul, the geopolitical future of Asia is becoming apparent: American troops are providing security for a Chinese state-owned company to exploit the Aynak copper reserves, which are worth tens of billions of dollars. While some of America’s NATO allies want to do as little as possible in the effort to stabilize Afghanistan, China has its eyes on some of world’s last untapped deposits of copper, iron, gold, uranium and precious gems, and is willing to take big risks in one of the most violent countries to secure them.
     
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  7. Argentsum

    Argentsum Gold Member Gold Chaser

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  8. Mr. Shiny

    Mr. Shiny Silver Member Silver Miner

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    That's casting alloy, 85% Al at best, though closer to 80% worth about $1500 as scrap (trade in value). You'd be better off collecting beer cans as they are ~96% Al and has a scrap value of about 400 bux more than those ingots of casting alloy.

    As an aside on the ebay there is someone selling zinc ingot at BIN $9.99 per 2lb, sucker material just like copper.
    Hell, 4 bux worth of modern cents will net you the same weight in Zn plus some Cu to boot.
     
  9. Mr. Shiny

    Mr. Shiny Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Ryedale, you do understand that relying on you for copper investment advice is akin to asking the local drug dealer if you should buy crystal meth from him or go down the street and buy crack from Pookey. You have a vested interest in Cu and cent sorting, kinda makes your opinion skewed.

    Oh, and the quote about gold in computers is cherry picked, every other post in that thread stated it was a fool's venture. As for the comment about digging 2 miles for 'bum's' metal? They also collect manure from farms to make fertilizer, guess what? It's still shit!
     
  10. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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  11. HairHopper

    HairHopper Seeker

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    Copper is sold by the ton. Silver, the poor man's PM, is sold by the oz. Dream on.

    I can go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a heavy spool of pure copper wire for less than 50 bucks or endless amounts of copper pipe. Get back to me when they begin selling silver and gold.
     
  12. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    The US Govy in late 1700s made three metals monetary money:

    GOLD SILVER and COPPER.

    Imagine having say $50,000.00 in your garage in copper.

    All 11,627.91 pounds of the darn stuff...

    Where do you park the darn car?
     
  13. newmisty

    newmisty Duppy Conqueror Midas Member

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    Not too many people sporting $50,000 worth of silver in their garage either.
     
  14. KGMe

    KGMe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That's because it fits under the bed!
    ;)
     
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  15. Ryedale

    Ryedale New Member

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    24 sq feet of floor space required. 6x55 gallon drums, Double stack and cut the floor space in half, but it better be a good floor. one tenth the space of the SUV..... Move the golf bag, litter box and garden hose and you're all set.
     
  16. Mr. Shiny

    Mr. Shiny Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Ask CCJoe, he has 4.125 tons of it.
     
  17. Mr. Shiny

    Mr. Shiny Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Yep, and check your charts because it (copper) took a 75% haircut in ~180 days a while back.
     
  18. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I bought 3750 kilo copper bars, more expensive than junk copper. These are beautiful bars and are averaging $26 a bar, double what I paid. I just stored 5000 lbs of it TODAY in my high tech security facility. I still have ONE more crate coming in and it all fits in a neat 3X3X6 high space.
    I would never risk my silver or copper in my house, gated community or not. NO where is safe except a high tech security facility.
     
  19. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    http://www.barchart.com/commodityfutures/Metals Check the charts today as I live in reality. I bought @ 3.70 and actually lower (3.60) as that's what my dealer bought at and what my buy off him was predicated on.
    All red ink EXCEPT copper.
     
  20. Mr. Shiny

    Mr. Shiny Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Joe, set me straight.

    You bought Cu ingot for ~$13/kg or ~$5.90/lb when the copper spot was $3.70/lb and lower $3.60?
    You bought 8250 pounds of copper ingots for almost $6/lb when you could have just bought copper cathode for $3.60-$3.70/lb.
    And this is a smart investment in your world? That's >$18k in the crapper.
    Wow!, just simply wow.
     
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  21. Gcubed

    Gcubed Banned

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    May I add that he bought "bright and shiny" scrap? What exchange contract allows for delivery of chunks of buss bar in lieu of cathode?
     
  22. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Biblical money has been Copper, Silver and Gold for a reason. It is not unreasonable to think we are returning to that 4,000 year standard.
    Gold at $250 was belittled as money, silver at $4 was not "money" then either, it is now, and with another divinely engineered GSM copper at $4.50 lb now, will become money-look up "copper mites" in Jesus's time.A mite was not worth much, but money none the less. Notice a developing trend since '01?
     

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  23. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Are we getting closer to intended value? One day's wage = 1/10 troy oz silver= 64 copper quadrans?
    The Bible refers to the denarius as a day's wage for a common laborer (Matthew 20:2)- 'A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius [Latin Vulgate: bilibris tritici denario et tres bilibres hordei denario, δηναρίου in the original Greek];-Classical historians regularly say that in the late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire the daily wage for an unskilled laborer and common soldier was 1 denarius without tax, or about US$20 in bread.(By comparison, a laborer earning the minimum wage in the United States makes US$58 for an 8-hour day, before taxes.) The actual silver content of the Denarius was about 50 grains, or 1⁄10 troy ounce under the Empire.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius
    The Gospel of Mark specifies that a mite was worth less than a farthing, or more accurately, quadrans, the smallest Roman coin.
    1 gold aureus = 2 gold quinarii = 25 silver denarii = 50 silver quinarii =100 bronze sestertii = 200 bronze dupondii = 400 copper as = 800 copper semisses = 1600 copper quadrans.
     
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  24. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    http://shop.bestcopperbars.com/
    Wow simply wow all these companies down the crapper charging double what I paid for mine.
    The truth with links and real companies making real money is tough to argue with.
    It's all crap, rubbish, and bs I guess.
    Here's another multi million dollar company throwing money right down the crapper>http://www.providentmetals.com/bullion/copper.html?p=2
    WOW is what I say.
    Respond to the links and the facts Mr. Shiny.
    I'm waiting.
     
  25. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    I hear next year they'll make AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL 5 ouncers out of copper
    and sell them for $4500 a set....

    The BIGGER FOOL THEORY.

    "A BIGGER FOOL will come along and pay a higher price then somebody else did!"


    The FED used that in REAL ESTATE from 2001 ONWARD...

    Then something happened.


    Now we are down back to 2005 and DROPPING like a rock....
     
  26. Ruprick

    Ruprick Seeker Seeker

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    9 tons and adding here. All hoarded away at about 30% of current copper spot. Holding until their metal content is worth about $20/lb copper......and I'll be able to cash out for a dime each.

    I'll then retire the mortgage on the house.....and own it for 10 cents on the dollar.

    Who in 1964 would have thought a Mercury dime would be worth 25X face as soon as 1980......and we are there again......you will see that same dime worth 100X in the not too distant future. The copper penny will be an easy 10X at that time.

    Retire present value debt with future weak FRNs....you get from your sound metal.

    ALL metal is money.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  27. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Why don't they jump all over you rup?:)
    I said you were a genius on another thread and I guess with you having double what I have at a ridiculously price makes you a bona fide Einstein.
    FYI--Pack your bags for retirement as cu will hit 20 by 7/4 with the fireworks and all.
    Silver will hit 60 by 7/4 so even everyone busting my chops may be happy:)
     
  28. KGMe

    KGMe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    As many have said, it's not what you bought, but the premium you paid.

     
  29. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Love the math but would like to see a basis for the July 4th date and reasons.
     
  30. AgShaman

    AgShaman Seeker Seeker

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    Location:
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    Maybe.

    Or perhaps it's a Red Herring for JPM

    I myself can trust copper only enough to buy junk copper (88.5%) direct ship from the US Mint in their Presidential series $1 coins.

    In theory: If copper is meant to drop the moniker of "Semi"....and become a full fledged card/coin carrying precious metal....then won't the masses start to collect this "junk" copper and trade their FRN's straight up for them...and not just to rack up points on their credit cards? I've heard this program is failing miserably, so I really am not sure...and I only ordered $500 dinars worth in the Andrew Jackson vintage.

    I just don't trust copper right now. The past couple years I've been hearing about the Chinese hoarding the stuff. Was this the impetus that pushed JPM to get in on the action and front run their copper ETF with some big purchases themselves? Or were they acting on behalf of the goobermint...and getting some skin in the game to serve notice to China that they've noticed the hoarding that's taken place the last couple years? Whatever the truth may be...I sense the Chinese have stocked up on copper.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-Standard-for-the-worlds-currency-system.html

    I'll probably buy more junk copper....then circulate them in society

    If that program tanks completely and is abandoned...maybe that coinage will become one day like pre-64 junk silver coinage. When more and more neighborhoods fall prey to copper theives...then maybe i'll subscribe to the notion that copper is mus-skull-ing it's way into the spotlight.
     
  31. Mr. Shiny

    Mr. Shiny Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Joe, That's all well and good, and I am glad you found a source at half off retail, but it doesn't mean you didn't over pay.
    I thoroughly agree, these copper sellers are making real money, hell one of your linked companies charges an extra $35-$40 to run a buff over the ingots, do you think the shiny copper will fetch more at selling time? Nope, you'll get spot minus the discount.
    $9/lb for busbar! That's what that rounded edge copper is, electrical bus, plus that fancy logo and some text.
    I have, wait no longer.
     
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  32. TomServo

    TomServo New Member

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    PEX, wireless, fiber optics and small solar panels (using silver) that need less copper for power transmission will eat into the electrical copper market. We have enough copper for hundreds of years at least.
    But...if ccjoe times his sells right, he's going to make a ton of money.
     
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  33. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Thanks MS for the well thought out response. That's all I ask.
     
  34. spathatos

    spathatos Seeker Seeker

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    Great Post above ^^^^^

    Revalation 6:6
    Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
     
  35. TomServo

    TomServo New Member

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    "PEX, wireless, fiber optics and small solar panels (using silver) that need less copper for power transmission will eat into the electrical copper market. We have enough copper for hundreds of years at least."

    I wanted to add the death of pennies to this list. If the copper supply gets tight, kill the nickel to free up a bunch more.

    I still see short-term money-making opportunities, but copper as money? 2,000 years ago before Caterpillar and dynamite, sure, but we know how to find it now.
     
  36. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I think it is important to have a grasp on the subject matter to post about it as people will get misinformation if you don't. A discussion board should add light to the subject matter and NOT obfuscate as our government does that already e.g. 9.4% unemployment when we all know it's 22%.
    The point is there is a copper shortage and it isn't get any better. http://www.321energy.com/editorials/watson/watson121605.html
    Just study this stuff to see what all the experts are saying past and present.
     
  37. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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  38. PastTense

    PastTense New Member

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    Where do you buy copper cathode and where to you sell it? What is the premium between the two?

    To invest in copper one has to be optimistic about the future of the world's economy (huge numbers of people buying new houses and new cars...). Instead some of us are very pessimistic.
     
  39. Gcubed

    Gcubed Banned

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    LME or NYMEX. I doubt fabricators would trust any other source except for refinery direct.
     
  40. ccjoe

    ccjoe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I bought all finished kilo bars.
    I am very pessimistic about the U.S. economy hence my 75% silver positon.
    25% in copper is because I feel more optimistic about Asia and housing starts, car purchases, etc for the NEW middle class which will need more copper than is being produced.
    Of course we have the 9000 year history of copper coin usage in the exact place where everything is happening with the most people> China.
     

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